Dan Margulis Applied Color Theory
Is Apply Image Obsolete?
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 12:42:04 -0400
From: Ric Cohn
Subject: Apply image obsolete?
My blind optimism knows no bounds ;-{ I made a feature
request asking for a slider for the opacity settings in the Apply Image
(and Calculations) dialog box. I thought is was a no brainer. Here is Chris
Cox's reply:
"They haven't changed because they were obsoleted
by layers.
There are only a few obscure things you can do with
those dialogs that you can't do with layers."
Do others agree or disagree?
Ric Cohn
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Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 13:20:44 -0400
From: "Gene Palmiter"
Subject: Re: Apply image obsolete?
Its not an area that I know very well....can't learn it
all at once! But, I do know of something that a lot of people don't...the
fade command. It can do a lot and might do what you want.
Thanks,
Gene Palmiter
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Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 17:43:21 -0000
From: "Jen & Ron"
Subject: Re: Apply image obsolete?
How would someone go about applying the techniques in
the chapter from Dan's book- "Plate Blending as Poetry" .
Adjustments layers in Photoshop has Channel Mixer as an
option, However I prefer the "Apply Image" dialog rather
than Channel Mixer.
By no Means do I find Apply Image to be obsolete.
Ron Scratch
RR Donnelley
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Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:11:24 -0700
From: "Mike Russell"
Subject: Re: Apply image obsolete?
The devil is in the adverbs and adjectives, in this
case "only" and "obscure". Eliminate those, and
reword the rest a little, and Chris - perhaps reformed after a visit from
the ghosts of Photoshop past and future - might instead have said:
"We made a conscious decision to refrain from
adding layer functionality to some of the older Image>Adjust dialogs.
This avoided duplicated development effort and helped to keep the
code size smaller.
The fuller functionality of the original dialogs is
still there, in keeping with Adobe's abiding concern for experts, such as
yourself."
Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com
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Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 13:29:01 -0500
From: "jimbean"
Subject: Re: Re: Apply image obsolete?
and one huge reason to use 'apply image' is that it
works with any 'same-size' file that is open...where as Channel Mixer only?
works with that one file..(I think).. all the best, jim bean
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Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 19:04:38 -0000
From: "Louis Dina"
Subject: Re: Apply image obsolete?
I use Apply Image fairly frequently and certainly don't
consider it to be obsolete. I'd miss it if it were gone. There
are many times I prefer Apply Image and find it more convenient.
Channel mixer is often nice, but I can't combine a
channel from one file with another of the same size.
Calculations offers some nice features too, but I find
Apply image easier most of the time.
Lou
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Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 18:54:32 -0000
From: "Steve Peters"
Subject: Re: Apply image obsolete?
What can you do with the Apply Image, that can not be
done with a
channel mixer adjustment layer? I am asking becasue I
don't know.
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Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 20:24:12 -0000
From: "Jen & Ron"
Subject: Re: Apply image obsolete?
As stated in a previous post:
"'apply image'-is that it works with any
'same-size' file that is open."
This comes in handy when one would like to target a
channel in one color space from of a copy of that image that is in
different color space.
For example, some fleshtones have a weak Cyan
Channel. One could use the Red Channel from an RGB version of the
same file to perform a blend using Apply Image. In other cases one could
use the "L" channel In Lab to perform other desired blends to
improve images.
For me, I prefer to look only at the target channel I
am working on. Channel Mixer forces the user to view all the channels at
once.
Ron Scratch
RR Donnelley
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Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 17:41:04 -0700
From: "Raymond E. McKinley"
Subject: Apply Image Obsolete
I guess Chris Cox doesn't do much channel blending,
While it is true that you can blend channels by copying a channel to a
blank layer above your image and changing the opacity and blend modes, this
is more work and doesn't offer you the live preview which you can get when
using apply image.
Regards
Raymond
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Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:33:43 -0000
From: "Steve Peters"
Subject: Another Apply Image question?
Would there ever be a time that you would need to take
say a red
channel from and image processed with ProPhoto working
space, into an
image that was processed using Adobe (1998)?
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Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 07:29:09 -0700
From: Lee Varis
Subject: Re: Another Apply Image question?
On Oct 11, 2005, at 2:33 PM, Steve Peters wrote:
Would there ever be a time that you would need to take
say a red
channel from and image processed with ProPhoto working
space, into an
image that was processed using Adobe (1998)?
Yes...if you only get the overall look you want in
Adobe RGB when the red channel clips to white in important areas re-process
the image with the same color adjustment in your raw converter but process
into ProPhoto RGB - there will be a lot more detail in the red channel with
no clipping.
The problems come with the conversion out of ProPhoto
into the more constrained print space. The colors don't have to move as far
out of Adobe RGB so the conversion is more predictable but you still desire
the detail in the red channel. You can apply the red channel of ProPhoto to
the red channel of Adobe RGB but you will likely alter the color so you
have to be a little tricky!
You could arrange to apply the luminosity of the
ProPhoto red channel (or possibly, multiply the channel) to things that are
red in the Adobe RGB image by using the "channel" as a layer with
blending options that limit the effect to areas where the blue channel is
black. You could also just use layer masks to isolate the luminosity layer
to the clipped areas, painting in tone and contour in the otherwise flat
and posterized red areas.
It does take some experimenting to wrap your head
around all this.
regards,
Lee Varis
http://www.varis.com
888-964-0024
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Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 14:01:19 -0700
(PDT)
From: John O
Subject: Re: Apply image obsolete?
Here's one obscure (I have to look that BIG word
up) way that is different than using just a layer. Use the
apply image command in "Darken, or Lighten mode as well as other
modes. Then you can set the "layer" to Color, or Luminosity mode,
ect. The man has this in his writings in Electronic Publishing
articles and Professional Photoshop the book. Have faith in his
knowledge and let his writings be your guiding light.
These few obscure things can be important things.
John Opitz
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Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 19:02:15 -0400
From: Ric Cohn
Subject: Re: Re: Apply image obsolete?
I agree completely. I find it invaluable, but wanted to
hear what other's think. If you like the idea of improving rather than
obsoleting this feature go to the Adobe Users forum feature request link
and let your views be known. Personally, I find Chris Cox putting himself
up as the arbiter of how experts should use Photoshop annoying. AFAIK he's
an engineer- not an expert user- and he should be listening to the users
for what's needed.
Ric Cohn
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Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 18:56:36 -0000
From: "Steve Peters"
Subject: Re: Another Apply Image question?
Thanks Lee. I was following you up to this point,
"the "channel" as a layer with blending options that limit
the effect to areas where the blue channel is black". I am not
understanding how why you would be using the blue channel if the point it
to bring back insome detail that was lost in the red channel?
Thanks,
Steve
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Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:56:35 -0700
From: Lee Varis
Subject: Re: Re: Another Apply Image question?
Well... using the blend-if sliders with light values in
the red channel might work but you may end up blending into areas that are
magenta or yellow more than you might want. The blue channel will likely be
really dark only in areas that are actually red. You are trying to darken
and "shape" colors that are over saturated red. The red channel
will be totally white at this point and you could use the very narrow end
of the highlight portion of the "red" Blend-if slider or perhaps
a broader region of the shadow end of the "blue" Blend-if slider.
It really depends on the exact nature of the image and what other colors
are present. Very often I find that I get softer transitions blending into
red regions using the blue slider. Your milage may vary.
regards,
Lee Varis
http://www.varis.com
888-964-0024
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Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:23:27 -0500
From: Howard Smith
Subject: Re: Re: Apply image obsolete?
Good going, John! I tried several variations with
stunning results. This
is the sort of original thinking that keeps bringing me
back to the Forum.
Such a little thing to be so effective. Thanks!
Howard Smith
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Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:39:57 -0500
From: Howard Smith
Subject: Re: Re: Apply image obsolete?
How about that? You were right, John. I
believe it's page 353 of Professional Photoshop that mentions this.
For some reason your suggestion was more effective in my case.
Perhaps it's because it was offered in isolation and not in a
chapter. Whatever the reason, it got me started out on an exciting
new path of exploration.
Just thought I should offer this additional comment.
Taken out of context my other e-mail might have been misconstrued as
sarcasm. Don't have time for such foolishness.
Howard Smith
----- Original Message -----
From: "John O"
Use the apply image command in "Darken, or Lighten
mode as well as other modes. Then you can set the
"layer" to Color, or Luminosity mode, ect.
The man has this in his writings in Electronic
Publishing articles and Professional Photoshop the
book.
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Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:41:40 -0000
From: John Opitz
Subject: Apply image obsolete?
Hello Mr. Smith,
Don't worry about it. Sarcasm does not
bother me. I'm an easygoing guy with a sense of humor.
Yes. I feel it's a great tool to
have…
Apply image. For contrast enhancing. Changing
color. But you have to know the make-up of the channels (ten channels
in all) Chapter 1
(Professional Photoshop), where the man shows the
differences… in that example. Sometimes you know the make-up already.
Say for skin tones. For other things. You have to look at the channels
pallet. I keep that at Large Thumbnails to see what's going on there. Doing
the blending thing. Reminds me of a time. And a good time indeed. (As W.C.
Fields would say it), when I was at a higher learning institution, where
the opposite gender was telling me about mathematics...She said: " To
most people, 1 plus 1 equals 2. But. I can show you (eyes piercing though
eyelashes) where 1 plus 1 will get you 3. If you play your cards
right"…….. I did not believe this for 1 minute. But, I'm
one that gives the "benefit of the doubt". (Deal the cards!!!).
As I found out. As with channel blending. The things to be on the lookout
for are changing colors you don't want to change. Contrast blends that you
don't want affected on other objects. That's where using the
"mask" with the apply image command or a layer mask comes in
handy. Example would be if I wanted to use contrast blends (green channel
to composite) on skin tones and there were other red objects in the image
as well that I do not want affected. I'll use the green or maybe the blue
channel (as a mask) on a layer mask, applying it in hard light mode, using
the apply image command. Using a mask, I will crank up the opacity. Getting
more into the skin tones, much less to none in the other reds. And a lot of
times you don't need the layer mask for blends. Different modes applied
with different channels work just fine.
The following is to Mr. Cohn as well, writes:
I find it invaluable, but wanted to hear what
other's think.Personally, I find Chris Cox putting
himself up as
the arbiter of how experts should use Photoshop
annoying. AFAIK he's an
engineer- not an expert user- and he should be
listening to the users
for what's needed.
Yes, True. But, if you know about history. Speaking for
myself, arbiters' that dictate on how things should be. I hope burning
books is not next. I know some arbiters' that are not exactly eagle scouts.
Helpful, friendly, courteous, kind (parts of the scouts' law) is not in
their vocabulary.
Even if they (the company we know so well) did not want
to improve the apply image command. Don't take it out. Just leave it alone.
Take out things that are less used, useful for those caliber of people who
use the program (full version). Remember, they now have out Elements. So,
to stripe it out is not a good idea. I mean the Red Eye Reduction tool
(also in elements) is a thing, I don't use. I don't deal with red eye too
much. I have an action to do that, using the apply image command, and then
paint on a mask, for those times. Red eye reduction tool would be less used
by those caliber of people using the full version. I would think? Giving
the benefit of the doubt though, a lot of users of the full version can be
using it a lot. I'm one that didn't run red lights to buy the program just
for red eye reduction tool. I knew already how to solve the problem. If
they start stripping out items like the apply image command and other
important features like it, look at it this way. 1) You can always go back
to that version where they still had it in.
2) Authors can now write less because of fewer features
in the program.
3) (Authors can focus more on) Write in-depth books,
articles on "The problems of Red Eye. And 101 uses for the red eye
reduction tool, and other new magical all in one tools" that you don't
need the apply image command for.
John Opitz
___________________________________________________________________________s
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:28:14 -0600
From: Howard Smith
Subject: Apply Image
On 10/29/05 Richard Sallee posted a message asking for
more information on Apply Image and on Calculations. It must have
been late when I posted the first half of this information because I
mistakenly sent it direct to him. Fortunately he told me what I had
done, so here it is in case anyone else has an interest. If this one
gets past the Forum reviewers (it's a bit long), I'll be sending on on
Calculationsl in a few days. The underlying information about
channels does not need to be repeated, so it should be considerably
shorter. Calculations, by the way, is not as fearsome as its name.
Actually quite easy to work with, unlike what one might expect.
Richard and many of the other participants in this
Forum don't need all the details about channels, but keep in mind that
those with less experience will need to understand the basics before they
can appreciate how Apply Image actually gets the job done. A cookbook
approach, to my mind, would be worthless.
Apply Image copies a single channel, or a composite
channel and pastes it over another channel or composite channel that exists
either in that same file or in a different file. More simply, it takes a
picture from any open image file and pastes it into the active image file.
You can do the same thing by simply copying one channel or composite
channel and using Edit/Paste to paste it over another channel or composite
channel. The advantage of using Apply Image is that it gives you more
options and it gives them to you in a neat little package.
The key to understanding Apply Image is to understand
the basic nature of channels. All channels, regardless of which color space
the image resides in, are nothing but grayscale images. And the grayscale
image itself is just Photoshop's interpretation of what you can picture as
a sheet of graph paper full of numbers from 0 to 255. Each little square on
that graph paper contains one of those numbers. Each of those numbers
represents a single shade of gray.
But if each of those little squares represents a single
shade of gray, where does the color come from? It comes from a subprogram
inside of Photoshop that interprets each number in each square. But that
doesn't make sense, either. How does Photoshop know which color is
represented by each number? O.K. Have you ever tried moving the channels in
the Channels Palette? You can't because Photoshop's interpreter wouldn't
know how to interpret them if you did. As long as the Red channel is in its
original, assigned position, Photoshop knows that each of the numbers in
the Red channel refer to a specific shade of red. Now you can change the
shades of red represented by the numbers in the Red channel, but you still
get red from that channel. Just paste the numbers from another channel into
that Red channel. A number is just a number to the Red channel as long as
the channel stays where it belongs. Once the new values have been pasted
into the Red channel the interpreter will again interpret the numbers as
different shades of red, but this time the shades of red will reflect the
new numbers.
Now you can see why it is possible to paste the a
channel from a LAB file into the Blue channel of an RGB file. Both channels
are nothing more than a collection of numbers from 0 to 255. The Blue
channel has no way of knowing that those numbers represent shades of red
and green when they're safely stored in the a Channel of a LAB file. Once
the numbers are blended into the Blue channel, they represent shades of
blue. You can also see why both files must be exactly the same size and the
same resolution. You can't copy numbers from one sheet of graph paper onto
another unless they are exactly the same size. Otherwise you wouldn't be
able to copy them to corresponding squares. There either wouldn't be enough
numbers, or you would have some left over.
Here we come to something that has stumped many a
Photoshop user. You've got a confusing variety of blending modes from which
to choose, and you run into yet another variable in the form of the Opacity
slider. What to do? Should you carefully compile and memorize a set of
definitions telling you the purpose of each blending mode? How do you know
what opacity to use? This is the easiest problem of all to solve. You try
them out on your image. There's no way to analyze your image and be 100%
certain that any given blending mode is the one that will give the best
result. You may believe strongly that only Darken mode will work in one
specific case. But you can't be sure that something else won't work better,
no matter how many definitions you memorize. What you do is to try out
those that seem the most promising. When you're close to what you want, try
adjusting the opacity and see what happens. Using a mask vastly increases
the number of possibilities. So what do the blending modes do, anyway? They
represent mathematical formulas. Photoshop is a calculator. It takes your
numbers and performs mathematical operations on them. When you use Blending
modes with Apply Image, the results of these calculations are stored in the
Target channel. If you aren't any better with math than I am, you let
Photoshop have its way with them. Your job is to tell it to try different
formulas for the computations, then you decide which one works best.
Photoshop is a great calculator, but you can't make it think for you. I
might add that all the thinking in the world can't predict with certainty
just what will happen with a specific image. What works for one may not
work at all for another.
By this time you should be ready to go to work with
Apply Image. You've got to work with it over and over until you can get a
real feel for just what it can do for you. Now that you're ready to go,
let's cover a few details that can trip you up if you don't watch out for
them.
Before you ever open Apply Image, you choose your
intended Target, the channel or composite channel into which you want to
paste a channel that will be chosen from any open image that is the same
size. Make the Target layer active, then open the Channels palette and
click on the channel you want as the Target. Now open Apply Image and
choose a specific Source channel from any open image. Remember that you
aren't limited to an individual color channel. You can also choose any
composite channel as the Source and/or as the Target. When Apply Image is
open, it assumes that the currently active layer and the currently active
channel (or composite channel) is what you intended for the Target. You
will find that your Target choice is now set in stone (can't be changed).
At this point you can only choose the name of the Source (any open file)
from which you're going to borrow a channel to blend with the chosen
channel in the Target image. Pick out a likely blending mode (or randomly
select one) and see what happens to your image. With Apply Image still
open, you can choose one blending mode after another. It only takes effect
when you click O.K. If you want to mask your targeted image, click the Mask
box and choose your mask from any channel in any open file that is the same
size as the Target image file. This can be any channel in the Channels
palette, including an Alpha channel that you created from scratch. It's all
grayscale images to Photoshop. You can even invert the mask if it's the
opposite of what you need. See how flexible Apply Image can be? So how do
you choose a Source channel, a Target channel, and possibly a Mask channel?
Think about what you want to do, then try out likely combinations. One
unintended result may open up a whole range of new possibilities for you.
Experimentation is as important as thinking.
To sum up the function of Apply Image, you use it to
blend one channel with another, using a combination of blending modes,
opacity settings, and perhaps even a mask to limit the changes to a
specific part of the image. As a precaution, use Apply Image with a
duplicate layer until you're satisfied with the result. Then you can always
delete the layer if you don't like it, or you can blend it into the
background layer by changing its opacity and even its blending mode. It may
occur to you that you can even replace the contents of one channel with
that of another-if the need should arise. Just use Apply Image, Normal mode
at 100% opacity to make the Source channel your new Red channel (or your
new Luminosity channel, or whatever). Note that I say you can replace the
contents of a channel with that from another. You still can't move the
channels around. Their positions are set in place with Super Glue. You can
replace the contents of the Red channel with the contents of the Green
channel, but you're still going to get red from the Red channel. It may
turn your image into garbage, but your Red channel is still going to give
you red.
That's the basics. Hopefully you've tried to visualize
all the action from the above descriptions instead of worrying about
memorizing the details. If not, keep reading until you can picture what's
going on. Memorization is deadly. If it still isn't clear, start working
with it a step at a time until you're comfortable with it. See what you can
make it do for you. Forget rules and definitions. Play with it until you
are satisfied. You won't hurt anything as long as you keep a copy of your
original image safely filed away.
As a final suggestion, you may find it helpful to print
out this description and keep in nearby while you're trying out Apply
Image. In the beginning It's easy to forget the little details so that you
end up being unnecessarily frustrated. Among other things, be sure your
Target layer is the top layer, or at least the topmost visible layer, or
you may not see any results.
Howard Smith
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Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 14:12:00 -0600
From: Howard Smith
Subject: Re: Apply Image
Whoops! A couple of the sentences weren't
finished. If anyone is puzzled over their inadvertent exclusion from
the part of the post that did get through, let me know. For example,
one statement began with "So what do the blending modes do" and
then it was cut off. it should have said that the blending modes are
mathematical formulas. Photoshop uses the formulas to perform all the
calculations called for by the individual modes. Multiply mode, for
example, multiplies the numbers in the Source channel with the numbers in
the Target channel. The results of the calculations overwrite the
original numbers in the Target channel.. It's these new numbers that give
the Target channel its new appearance. . Sorry about the
omissions. At least most of the post survived the journey.
I should add that criticism of my post is expected and
welcomed. But before you jump too hard on minor points, keep in mind
that things like the "interpreter" referred to are not intended
to be technically accurate descriptions. The post was about how to
understand and use Apply Image and not a technical discussion of
programming code about which I know nothing. Not being overly proficient in
math either, I'm content to give Photoshop the names of the blending modes
I want to use and then let it do all the hard work without bothering to try
to figure out how it manipulates those millions of numbers or how it
converts those numbers into colors on my monitor.
Howard Smith
