Dan Margulis Applied Color Theory
CMYKBuilds of Pantone Colors
Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 16:50:20 -0000
From: "cbdurr"
Subject: Pantone is a standard -- right?
We ran into a problem matching Pantone 369 CVU (a
yellow-green). We were outputting to a Epson wide format printer with 7
colors. There was some discrepancy, so we went looking for a reason.
Obviously, the RIP and color profiles are the major factors, but we
discovered that every program seemed to have a different CMYK value. What
accounts for this?
PANTONE color bridge book -- 67/0/98/5
InDesign CS -- 59/0/100/7
Photoshop 7 -- 72/10/100/1
Thanks in advance for any insights!
-Crystal Durr
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Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 10:09:46 -0700
From: J Walton
Subject: Re: Pantone is a standard -- right?
Beware of using Photoshop to figure out Pantone CMYK
callouts. The numbers will change based on the CMYK profile you have
loaded.
In the past, I've always standardized on the callouts
from the layout application (in your case InDesign).
J
____________________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 11:11:54 -0600
From: Andrew Rodney
Subject: Re: Pantone is a standard -- right?
On 9/1/05 10:50 AM, "cbdurr" wrote:
What accounts for this?
The inks for one. You1re not using process colors,
you1re using pigmented inks made by Epson.
You need some software utility to take the color
profile for your Epson and provide the closest CMYK (or RGB) values to
simulate that Pantone color. For example, ProfileMaker Pro1s ColorPicker
module would allow you to load the color profile, measure (or specify) a
Pantone color with it1s built in library and show you the equivalent value
as well as how far off (in what is called deltaE) that printer will produce
the color. It1s possible it will be pretty close or quite far off depending
on the color gamut of the Epson. The ICC profile for that device provides
all the necessary data to tell ColorPicker this information.
Andrew Rodney
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Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 13:23:12 -0400
From: Henry
Subject: Re: Pantone is a standard -- right?
Color Bridge is not a CVU guide, nor are the older
solid to process fan guides.
Even among the solid to process guides, the build for
369 has been modified over the years and "defined" as either:
67/0/98/5 Bridge
59/0/100/7 (2000)
65/0/100.8.5 (1992)
Henry Davis
____________________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 14:09:41 -0400
From: Brian Pylant
Subject: RE: Pantone is a standard -- right?
Pantone *is* a standard, if you are printing spot inks
(and even then, they do not actually manufacture these inks so technically
you must rely on your ink manufacturer's formulation of the color as
defined by Pantone). You cannot exactly match PMS 369 unless you are
actually printing 369 as a spot ink, but how I interpreted your post was
that you are printing 369 using process inks, at least for proofing
purposes.
1.) Pantone changed their suggested CMYK equivalents at
least once that I can recall in recent years. So depending on what
application version you're using it might not have the most recent CMYK
values included. And ultimately, you must remember that these are just
suggested values, based on their press conditions, to simulate Pantone spot
colors using process inks. Sometimes you can actually find a better CMYK
formulation yourself, based on your press conditions, printers, etc. rather
than relying on theirs, to achieve a closer simulation using process inks.
2.) If the final output is to be process (CMYK) then
you should not be specifying Pantone spot colors. Use a Pantone Process
swatchbook instead, or just raw CMYK values. This is an oft-broken rule,
but I consider it to be a poor working habit to specify process colors
using spot names and swatch libraries. It just adds an extra level of
confusion to the process - are the work orders wrong, and this is really a
spot job and not 4/c process? Or are the files wrong? And which color is
the customer expecting, the spot color or the CMYK "equivalent"?
Or perhaps something else? As you can see, it's just not a good idea at
all. Not to mention that you are limiting your color choices, as there are
hundreds of spot colors but thousands in the process swatchbook (and
millions of CMYK combinations overall).
3.) If you are trying to proof spot inks (that will be
printed spot) using a process printer, you cannot. There are few spot
colors that can be accurately printed using process inks, and many of them
are impossible to get even close to. When I'm issuing proofs that include
spot colors I just don't bother worrying about printing those colors
accurately as process, and if the customer did not specify the spot ink
(i.e. if we selected it based on their file) I include Pantone color chips
as a reference. (If they did supply a file with all their spot inks
properly defined then I consider the proof to be for separations and color
breaks only, and they should know the color they have selected and no chips
are required).
BRIAN PYLANT
Manager, Electronic Prepress
Disc Makers
7905 North Route 130, Pennsauken, NJ 08110
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Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 10:23:31 -0700
From: mac townsend
Subject: Re: Pantone is a standard -- right?
Pantone is a standard for mixed inks. That is, for inks
mixed in a cup and put on a press as a spot color.
Most of the Pantone spot color inks cannot be matched
in cmyk.
Because many people do not know this, Pantone supplies
cmyk "equivalents" of these spot colors. The fact that they don't
match well at all most of the time doesn't keep people from using them,
thinking that they are a "standard." But the standard keeps
changing as Pantone revises the conditions under which they calculate these
equivalencies. I won't go into what these conditions are and how they
affect the formulation. None of them are under the control of a
photographer.
Different softwares use different versions of the
Pantone-issued equivalency libraries.
Thus different results. That all are wrong, to one
degree or another, doesn't seem to be an issue.
Mac Townsend
Adcom Graphics Digital Imaging
Fairfield, California
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Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 14:30:27 -0400
From: todie
Subject: Re: Pantone is a standard -- right?
Hexachrome printers have a better chance to match
Pantone's colors.
(have you tried fluorescents or metallics? : )
Before Homeland Security gets info acts together, don't
expect programmers-at-large to match CMYK values, especially since Pantone
keeps improving their own data (and communication channels : )
Laurentiu Todie
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Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 20:30:58 -0000
From: "cbdurr"
Subject: Re: Pantone is a standard -- right?
J Walton understood the essence of my question. I don't
think I worded it very well. My concern is that there is seemingly so much
variation in Adobe's CMYK equivalants in the Pantone libraries. My thanks
go out to him for explaining the difference in Photoshop. That makes
perfect sense. Now the question remains -- why are the values from InDesign
and Illustrator different than Color Bridge?
I'm well acquainted with the realities of spot inks as
I work in the same building as our presses and therefore get to see the
whole process. As a clarification, we were matching large format signage
(one-offs) to spot-colored materials previously printed on the press.
thanks again,
Crystal Durr
____________________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 17:36:55 -0400
From: Jim Rich
Subject: Re: Pantone is a standard -- right?
Lots of things account for color inaccuracies
when producing Pantone colors.
Here are a few things that can snag you:
The up stream workflow and your rip is not set up
optimally with icc profiles to print the right pantone color.
The printer/ rip/paper combination is not technically
capable of creating certain colors. This is just the physics of using
certain inks in the inkjet printer with certain papers.
The Pantone system uses 14 base inks to create
the Pantone swatch book. This does not include metallics. So now you are
trying to create some of the Pantone colors with an inkjet that only has 7
or 8 colors on a perhaps a different and perhaps not a bright enough paper.
My .02
Jim Rich
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Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:38:15 -0000
From: Stephen Marsh
Subject: Re: Pantone is a standard -- right?
--- "cbdurr" wrote:
We ran into a problem matching Pantone 369 CVU (a
yellow-green). We
were outputting to a Epson wide format printer with 7
colors. There was some
discrepancy, so we went looking for a reason.
Crystal, do you mean that layout elements painted in
the same colour as imported elements had a different colour on output? Or
just that the composite colour of this spot ink was so far off (is it even
possible to come close, even with your inkjet/RIP combo)? Were all files
using the same spot colour with the same name (was there a Pantone 369 CVC
and also a Pantone 369CV and or Pantone 369 etc, all with slightly
different spelling of names and different objects referencing different
inks in the colour list, which in 'theory' are all the same)? Having a
clean colour palette is more than just being fussy!
Many colour RIP's have built in spot colour matching,
the RIP picks up the default spot library name from the layout - and
instead of using the CMYK recipe that is defined for this spot colour in
the PostScript stream, it will subsitute the RIP makers version, which
should be wider gamut tuned to the inks and stock etc. The result is that
you should get better results.
So, is in-RIP spot colour matching being used, and is
there a lookup for this particular ink? If so, is the RIP actually
performing it's task or is it using the default CMYK values in the layout
file?
Then as you say, the same spot colour can have a
different formula, depending on which spot colour library version is
licenced from Pantone for use in that software.
We went through this in the year 2000, when Photoshop
used the new PanTOne formula but other software in use at the time did not.
Software vendors and Pantone expect their users to uderstand all the
issues, but as this thread demonstrates it can be a complex and confusing
subject with many variables in file construction and output.
I usually ensure that all spot colour files in the
current project, whether they are Photoshop, Illustrator or InDesign/Xpress
have the same CMYK build and colour name specified for the named spot
colour, then it is just a matter of seeing if in-RIP colour matching is of
help or not.
Stephen Marsh.
____________________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:35:00 -0400
From: Lee Clawson
Subject: Re: Re: Pantone is a standard -- right?
Crystal,
In addition to some other comments posted I'll add the
following...
A likely answer is that Color Bridge is based on
Pantone's most recent definitions and the versions that shipped within
Illustrator/InDesign are older. You could check the Pantone site for new
color libraries that can be installed in the Adobe products.
Lee
____________________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 19:22:08 -0700
From: David Creamer
Subject: Re: Pantone is a standard -- right?
Now the question remains -- why are the values
from
InDesign and Illustrator different than
Color Bridge?
I believe Photoshop bases their Pantone solid values on
LAB, so the conversion numbers change based on the chosen color management
settings. The other programs use a simple look-up table regardless of the
color settings.
All manufacturers are required to use Pantone's current
conversion numbers at the time of release of the software. The CS2 programs
were simply released before the Color Bridge, so their numbers match the
previous solid-to-process guide. It is possible for either Adobe or Pantone
to release updated libraries, but we shall see if that actually happens.
David Creamer
I.D.E.A.S. - Results-Oriented Training
http://www.IDEAStraining.com
____________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 11:52:30 -0600
From: Chris Murphy
Subject: Re: Re: Pantone is a standard -- right?
All of the CS2 applications have LAB based solid
libraries. In InDesign CS2 and Illustrator CS2, by default, the legacy
behavior applies, which is the crazy idea that a solid color has a specific
CMYK value.
Chris Murphy
Color Remedies (TM)
www.colorremedies.com/realworldcolor
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Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 17:04:08 -0400
From: Henry
Subject: Re: Re: Pantone is a standard -- right?
Understanding the notion that the color of a solid can
be accurately rendered by several different CMYK builds, I would think that
one have to settle on 1 certain build when communicating the color as with
the Pantone color guide. Imagine the complications of specifying the
same color as either this or that or the other CMYK build. Also, it
seems that as a solid becomes a lighter and lighter tint, that the
differences in the builds would begin to render differences in the hue of
the color - just guessing, though.
Even though designers and printers behaved with
different expecatations, what is missed so often is that no spot colors are
intended as 4 color process. So, whichever library is used is almost
mute, for until the build is rendered under specific conditions, who can
know exactly what it will be?
Henry Davis
____________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 16:17:38 -0600
From: Chris Murphy
Subject: Re: Re: Pantone is a standard -- right?
On Sep 12, 2005, at 3:55 PM, Marco Ugolini wrote:
Illustrator CS2 DOES offer Lab values for PANTONE
colors -- only to
screw up royally by forcing a conversion of the Lab
values to
document space before sending to print - oy!
Document CMYK is the default space used when printing,
so that's the appropriate space to convert the LAB values to. Or are you
saying it converts to Document CMYK and *then* to print space when print
space is something other than Document CMYK?
Chris, what do you mean when you write "by
default"? Where is the
choice to switch PANTONE solid libraries to Lab mode in
InDesign?
It's in the Ink Manger. Check "Use Standard LAB
Values for Spots"
Chris Murphy
Color Remedies (TM)
www.colorremedies.com/realworldcolor
____________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 14:55:39 -0700
(GMT-07:00)
From: Marco Ugolini
Subject: Re: Re: Pantone is a standard -- right?
Illustrator CS2 DOES offer Lab values for PANTONE
colors -- only to screw up royally by forcing a conversion of the Lab
values to document space before sending to print - oy!
But if InDesign CS2 has Lab-based solid libraries, I
certainly was not able to find them.
Chris, what do you mean when you write "by
default"? Where is the choice to switch PANTONE solid libraries to Lab
mode in InDesign?
All I find is CMYK values for any PANTONE value that I
look up in the Color Mode pull-down menu in InDesign's "New Color
Swatch" dialog box. You can load the PANTONE libraries, but the values
are CMYK only (in both Process and Spot mode). Even when you switch to Lab
after selecting a PANTONE color, the Lab values are those you get from
converting that PANTONE color's CMYK values to Lab using the CMYK working
space and RI set in the application's Color Settings: they are certainly
NOT the Lab values you can find in Photoshop's PANTONE libraries.
Unless I missed something...
-------
Marco Ugolini
Mill Valley, CA
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Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 16:43:47 -0600
From: Chris Murphy
Subject: Re: Re: Pantone is a standard -- right?
On Sep 12, 2005, at 3:04 PM, Henry wrote:
Understanding the notion that the color of a solid can
be accurately
rendered by several different CMYK builds, I would
think that one have
to settle on 1 certain build when communicating the
color as with the
Pantone color guide. Imagine the complications of
specifying the same
color as either this or that or the other CMYK build.
That's the whole lunacy of specifying colors in CMYK
and expecting them to come out as specific colors on in-specific output
processes.
If you must have a specific color, then print with ink
mixed in a bucket. Spot.
If you don't have the budget for spot, then you still
need to work with a printer who is adept at really good process control and
has a defined printing process. This means you can specify LAB and have it
converted using a profile at print time, or you specify spot in the
document but the job order is clear which spots are to be converted to
process, and this is done at the prepress stage by the printer. They can
easily swap out spot colors to process, if they know what they are doing,
using various software packages often including such features in their
prepress equipment, usually the RIP.
And yes there are problems doing this when there are
either tints of spot colors, or overprinting of spot colors. This is a
problem both when proofing as well as when converting the whole job to
process printing because the overprint behavior, dot gain, and opacity of
the inks isn't taken into account by today's applications or their color
management systems. (Some proofing system expressly proof such spot color
interactions, but use proprietary means to do so.)
Chris Murphy
Color Remedies (TM)
www.colorremedies.com/realworldcolor
____________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 15:47:36 -0700
(GMT-07:00)
From: Marco Ugolini
Subject: Re: Re: Pantone is a standard -- right?
In a message dated Sep 12, 2005 3:17 PM, Chris Murphy
wrote:
Document CMYK is the default space used when printing,
so that's
the appropriate space to convert the LAB values to. Or
are you
saying it converts to Document CMYK and *then* to print
space
when print space is something other than Document CMYK?
The latter: when printing a CMYK document in
Illustrator CS2, the Lab values are converted to Document CMYK and then to
the print space assigned in the Print Space dialog box (if you are printing
to a color-managed printer). I find that indescribably boneheaded. Why not
offer an option to override the conversion to Document CMYK and go directly
from Lab values to printer space? Not everyone would use it (or know its
value), but many of us certainly would appreciate the availability of such
a command!
It's in the Ink Manager. Check "Use Standard LAB
Values for Spots"
I am not at home right now, and I have no access to
InDesign CS2, but I will check that when I get back. Thank you for the tip.
------
Marco Ugolini
Mill Valley, CA
____________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 15:55:23 -0700
(GMT-07:00)
From: Marco Ugolini
Subject: Re: Re: Pantone is a standard -- right?
In a message dated Sep 12, 2005 3:51 PM, Chris Murphy
wrote:
It wouldn't be the first boneheaded color management
behavior I've
seen from Illustrator. I wonder if you can export the
file as PDF,
preserving the LAB value intact and then print from
Acrobat to get
what you want?
Tried that too: no luck. Same exact behavior.
-----
Marco Ugolini
Mill Valley, CA
____________________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 10:18:58 -0400
From: Lee Clawson
Subject: Re: Re: Pantone is a standard -- right?
on 9/12/05 5:04 PM, Henry wrote:
Also, it seems that as a solid becomes a lighter and
lighter tint, that the
differences in the builds would begin to render
differences in the hue of the
color - just guessing, though.
No need to guess, many of them do. Use the Pantone tint
book to see this.
Even though designers and printers behaved with
different
expecatations, what is missed so often is that no spot
colors are
intended as 4 color process. So, whichever
library is used is almost
mute, for until the build is rendered under specific
conditions, who
can know exactly what it will be?
I agree. We do the best we can (proofs and all). On
some jobs due to cost and/or very small print runs we (must) use a solid
simulation. Besides CMYK the Pantone color can also be in RGB (for posters
and lightboxes).
Lee
