Dan Margulis Applied Color Theory

Printer Adding a Digicam Department

   Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 12:02:14 -0700 (PDT)
   From: Andy Adams
Subject: Printer may add a Digital Camera Dept

Thanks to Dan's books and seminars, our print shop has a good handle on our color (most of the time). But now we are contemplating the addition of a digital camera Department.

Is there anyone that specializes in helping someone like us get set up with proper lighting, camera, and a good (and realistic) workflow. We don't plan on competing with the pros, we just want to offer more capabilities.

Hopefully this falls within the proper subject matter for this forum.

Thanks for any suggestions,

Andy Adams
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   Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 17:06:58 -0400
   From: "Gene Palmiter"
Subject: Re: Printer may add a Digital Camera Dept

Well...some of us are photographers. You need to answer a few questions? Where are you located? Of what will you be shooting? The person doing the shooting....do they know anything? What is your budget?

Thanks,
Gene Palmiter
freebridge design group
www.route611.com & Route 611 Magazine
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   Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 20:53:48 -0000
   From: "Ivan Histand"
Subject: Re: Printer may add a Digital Camera Dept

Not sure exactly what you're looking for, but off the top of my head here's one firm that does what you describe:

http://www.bluepixel.net/corporatesolutions/index.htm
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   Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 06:45:13 -0600
   From: "Philip Hainline"
Subject: Re: Printer may add a Digital Camera Dept

Even though I'm sure there are many good commercial photographers reading this site, I would suggest a more appropriate forum to ask your questions might be:

    <http://www.robgalbraith.com/>

Click on "Forums".  The only tricky part is which forum to initially post your question, since the discussion is divided by brand in the 35mm arena or other specialized discussions.

I would start with a post in the Canon or Nikon forums. Be sure to set out:

 - your goals:  customer, type of service, location
 - output medium/devices
 - your staff experience
 - your initial budget thoughts

Try to briefly outline your current strengths and experience.

-Phil
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   Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 06:32:56 -0700 (PDT)
   From: Andy Adams
Subject: Re: Printer may add a Digital Camera Dept

We are located in Jackson Mississippi. We are the largest printer in the state (www.hederman.com).

We will be shooting products (i.e. children's clothing, paintings, etc.).

The person doing the shooting (me and other color-correction artists) know what I have supplied through my different digital photography magazines and personal (consumer) digital cameras. But we would obviously need to be educated.

Our budget? Don't know yet. Right now I am just trying to get information for my boss.

Andy
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   Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 09:29:14 -0400
   From: Rick McCleary
Subject: Re: Printer may add a Digital Camera Dept

A couple of thoughts in general:

THOUGHT #1: THE RANT
The standard argument we all use for hiring professionals is, "Does the purchase of dental tools make you a dentist?"  The answer is, of course, "no".  And we all still go to the dentist to get our teeth fixed because we want it done right.

I have a friend who owns a print shop also.  He approached me to help him do exactly the same thing as Andy is suggesting.  I said, "John, do you know what I do?  I'm a photographer!  Why would I want to help you do that?  I refer business to you!  How about you refer that business to me?"

As Andy has doubtless spent endless hours staying up-to-date on the latest best practices in printing, and has years of experience in the printing industry that have taught lessons that can't be learned overnight, likewise, I have done the same in my chosen field of photography.  How can Andy possibly offer professional services in photography with no experience?  Oh, but he says he doesn't want to compete with the pros!  Is that what he's telling his clients?  As in, "I can do it for you, but if you want professional results, you better go hire a pro."  What kind of business plan is that?  It's one that is fatal in the long run, because it gives the impression of second-rate service.

I don't mean to sound harsh or unpleasant, but I feel a need to counter this trend towards grabbing at each and every profit opportunity that buzzes past our nose.  Yes, we're all in business to make money, but the approach that's suggested by Andy is very short-sighted.  I have been in this business (advertising/corporate photography) for 25 years.   And I have spent all of that time cultivating collaborative relationships with other businesses that supply the same clients I'm serving.  Printers, pre-press houses, designers, writers, video houses, etc.  We refer business to one another all the time, because we serve a common set of clients -- in my case, corporations needing corporate communications services.  I made a decision a long time ago that, in spite of the fact that I own a very gnarly Mac that's loaded with Quark, InDesign and Final Cut Pro (and I know how to use it all), I was going to concentrate on my core business - photography - and make it the best it can be.  It's been proven time and again that businesses in it for the long haul stick to their core competencies.  Those businesses that "diversify" either go out of business or quickly return to their core business.  Form a relationship with a photographer and act as his/her agent to satisfy your client's needs.  Or better yet, form some relationships and simply make referrals.  Scratch each other's back.  It's good for everyone's business.

So, stick to what you do, and don't dip into my pocket.  I promise I won't lease a DocuColor and dip into yours.  Let's work together. We're all serving the same master.

Enought of the rant.

THOUGHT #2: A POSITIVE SUGGESTION!
One of the major topics of discussion among digital photographers is the HUGE amount of post-production time required as compared to the film days.  When we all shot film, the job was done when the film went to the lab.  From that point on, the film went to the printer to be drum scanned, proofed and printed.  Now, most of the pre-press responsibilities have fallen to the photographer.  A major source of revenue is the conversion form RAW to CMYK with all the attendant steps in between.

As a printer, you can recover a lot of lost pre-press revenue by offering a RAW-CMYK conversion service.  This is exactly equivalent to the traditional pre-press service that used to be the exclusive domain of the print house.  It involves color correction, retouching, separation, control over Kgen, etc.

Many printers are still stuck in the 80's.  They haven't gotten past the vertigo they felt when desktop publishing first hit the industry. There are a growing number, however, who are finally embracing the change that has taken place and figuring out how to make money at it. A RAW conversion service cold be a fertile field for profit.  You already have the hardware.  All that is required is some training.

So much for my two (or three) cents.

Rick

RICK MCCLEARY PHOTOGRAPHY
201 Orchard Drive
Purcellville, VA  20132
v  540-338-4895
c  540-454-7180
www.rickmccleary.com
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   Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 13:04:54 -0400
   From: Henry
Subject: Re: Re: Printer may add a Digital Camera Dept

On Oct 11, 2005, at 9:29 AM, Rick McCleary wrote:

 As a printer, you can recover a lot of lost pre-press revenue by
 offering a RAW-CMYK conversion service.Ê This is exactly equivalent to
 the traditional pre-press service that used to be the exclusive domain
 of the print house.Ê It involves color correction, retouching,
 separation, control over Kgen, etc.

 Many printers are still stuck in the 80's.Ê They haven't gotten past
 the vertigo they felt when desktop publishing first hit the industry.Ê
 There are a growing number, however, who are finally embracing the
 change that has taken place and figuring out how to make money at it.Ê
 A RAW conversion service cold be a fertile field for profit.Ê You
 already have the hardware.Ê All that is required is some training.

I'm don't believe that I find this to be very attractive.  Even now, with RGB or CMYK mysteries that call for guesswork and assumptions, I'm afraid that RAW prep work would be overwhelmingly chocked with guesswork.  The photographer knows the intent for the shot, so why keep it a mystery by delivering RAW?

Henry Davis
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   Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 20:33:21 -0700
   From: pat harbron
Subject: printer adding camera

Andy,

I am amazed that you can so casually mention that they are adding a camera,proper  lighting and a workflow program and then say that you don't think it will compete with photographers. Am I missing something? Why set up a professional camera dept. if you are not planning professional photography.

Who are you 'offering more capabilities' to? The same folks that bring you catalogues and brochures to print? Catalogues and brochures shot by 'the pros'.

Don't forget, it's not just about equipment. You will need the help of a professional photographer to get worthwhile results.

Why don't you see if Irving Penn is available so that your press operator can get an idea of how to shoot a portrait?

Pat
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   Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 23:10:59 -0400
   From: "Gene Palmiter" Subject: Re: printer adding camera

The problem...well...one of the problems....is that Irving Penn makes it look easy. He just presses a button and gets great work. Since that is all he does then the magic must be in the equipment. A person watching him work doesn't see the talent and experience. (I viewed his Worlds in a Small Room as a photography student in college....changed my life!)

A friend of mine is a professional model and she suggest that what ever I do....take an hour to do it and take a couple of hundred shots. Fiddle with the lights a lot...work up a sweat. Even though I know I have the job done in the first five minutes I won't get my due credit otherwise. I am not good at taking advise....but that is worth considering.

Thanks,
Gene Palmiter
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   Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:18:21 -0700
   From: J Walton
Subject: Re: printer adding camera

I don't think it is fair to criticize Andy for trying getting some information, as some seem to be doing. He doesn't own the company, he's just trying to put some data together.

And for the photographers that think it is somehow a sin for someone to diversify (especially in this economy), I seem to remember something Irving Penn said long ago...

""I am a professional photographer because it is the best way I know to earn the money I require to take care of my wife and children.""

I would hardly expect Mr. Penn to criticize someone who wants to try something new, something he loves, so that they can earn the money to take care of *their* families.

J
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   Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 10:30:13 -0400
   From: Lee Clawson
Subject: Re: Re: Printer may add a Digital Camera Dept

on 10/11/05 1:04 PM, Henry wrote:

The photographer knows the intent for the shot, so why keep
it a mystery by delivering RAW?

Henry,

One reason is they're doing work for a client that may use the images in a variety of ways (many intents) including the press on site.

Lee
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   Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 10:49:31 -0700 (PDT)
   From: Andy Adams
Subject: Re: printer adding camera

Everyone who got their photographic features ruffled can take a "chill-pill". It now looks as if we are leaning toward partnering with one or more photographers and inviting our clients to a seminar on digital camera workflow.

I want to thank everyone for their help and honest opinions. I have been given great connections if and when we choose to start up our own digital camera department.

Believe me, I know how some of you photographers feel, you work hard to create great photography. Some "newbee" comes along supposedly thinking he could do what has taken you years to learn to do. The same thing happens to us. Some "newbee" prepress want-a-be photographer thinks  he can file-prep his files for prepress.

On the other hand, I have seen some photographers do an excellent job crossing the line from photography to prepress. I have no doubt the same would be true of us if we crossed the line between prepress to photography.

Andy
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   Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:52:58 -0400
   From: Terry Wyse
Subject: Re: printer adding camera

OK, I'll say it:

As an EX-drum scanner operator, I'm amused by the photogs that expressed outrage that a prepress/print shop would even consider bring digital photography in-house and how it's not that simple and on and on...

And I think of the digital photographers that are now being forced to deal with CMYK issues that were typically handled by "us" scanner operators, now that all the experienced scanner operators are mostly gone (wondering out-loud if any of the photogs ever considered hiring an out-of-work scanner operator to deal with their color correction and CMYK issues like they're suggesting Andy should be by hiring a photog to manage their in-house studio?)

'Course, I was lucky in that I got out of scanning before I HAD to get out and simply morphed into other area of prepress/digital imaging that seemed to fit my skill set. It's done well enough that I've even been able to do a bit of photography on the side! :-)

What I've learned in 30 years of printing/prepress/whatever:
If you think your job is like rocket-science, it probably isn't.

Terry Wyse
Ex-scanner operator and now The Color Mangement Village Idiot and Calibrationist.

:-)
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   Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 13:18:43 -0700
   From: Jono Moore
Subject: Re: printer adding camera

I think the same thing is happening all over, if what is going on around my town is anything to go by.

Photographers are billing themselves as designers, designers are doing their own photography, printers are offering design services...everybody is stepping on each others toes.
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   Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 18:22:23 -0400
   From: Henry Davis
Subject: Re: printer adding camera

OK, I'll say this again:  Of the professional photographers that I have encountered, I have been impressed with how much of a full-time job they have without getting into the file prep end of the work. Partnering, and paying for the services of another party to do the prep work is a very good option, and one that has been catching on.  Of course, it isn't necessary to do this, but doing the prep work does take time, and getting a picture to perform at its best will take more than just a push of a button.  It is an expense that *can* be justified.

Even though it is probably a myth, the push-button solution is a very popular item on the wish list for lots of folks wanting to do it themselves.  And with this talk of late about Color Appearance Models, it may be becoming less of a myth.  If it does come along, I can still imagine Dan and others saying "I can beat it".

Henry Davis
Ex Stripper