Dan Margulis Applied Color Theory
Printers Who Advocate Default Settings
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 14:42:47 -0000
From: "jeremyschultz"
Subject: Default Photoshop color settings
I asked our printer for color settings and
specifications, and they sent me a .csf file to load for proper color
settings. But I noticed that it is almost exactly the same as the U.S.
Prepress Defaults settings included with Photoshop—Adobe RGB, US Web
Coated (SWOP) v2, 20% dot gain and Black Ink—US Web Coated (SWOP) v2
for grays. I’m most wary of the CMYK setting, which sets black limit
at 100 and GCR at medium (just like the default).
I've based my current settings on what Dan's book
recommended, and I've gotten good results. Should I conclude that the
printer's settings are dubious?
Jeremy
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 14:28:14 -0600
From: Chris Murphy
Subject: Re: Default Photoshop color settings
It's a bit of a crap shoot. Is the printer known for
high quality printing? If so, there's a good chance they pass the resulting
separation through a set of curves to account for their actual press
behavior, and if printing on a good quality stock, and printing CTP a
100% black ink limit and medium GCR with good process control in place
won't be a problem. But SWOP separations are geared for printing at 133
line screen, conventional platemaking, on a #5 stock. Adapting such
separations to different printing conditions is possible but are inferior
custom separations for actual printing conditions.
Further questioning of the printer may reveal what
happens to your file once they get it. Will it be going through a set of
plate curves, or will it be processed using a DeviceLink? Have you
communicated to them your level of tolerance for a match between your
display and their contract proof? If so, I'd use what they're recommending
until proven this is not good advice. If they balk at the display to proof
match, and instead bring up the proof to press match, that merely means
they are banking on any discrepancy showing up in the proof, and you'll fix
the problem at the proofing stage through iterations, and then they will
match the proof. A big part of the point of color management is reducing
those proof-color correction iterations.
If you get back a proof that is clearly not
representative of your file, let them know their suggestion isn't a
particularly high quality one. The options, as you see it are: a.) a custom
profile for the press or proofing system so you can get closer in one or
two iterations; b.) unlimited free proofs and a discount for the time you
lose having to guess how their setup behaves.
A printer is obligated to either accept tagged RGB and
separate correctly (for a fee, or not as long as this is explained up
front), or he is obligated to inform you how his press/proofing system
behaves. A "ballpark" suggestion isn't useful, and it's certainly
appropriate to let him know this in the context of "do we really have
a fit here? Should I be looking for a different printer?" But until
you've received the first proof, how good their suggested setup is, is an
open ended question. But you're suspicion is reasonable.
Chris Murphy
Color Remedies (TM)
www.colorremedies.com/realworldcolor
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 11:07:58 -0000
From: Stephen Marsh
Subject: Re: Default Photoshop color settings
I asked our printer for color settings and
specifications, and they
sent me a .csf file to load for proper color settings.
But I noticed that it is
almost exactly the same as the U.S. Prepress Defaults
settings included with Photoshop—
Adobe RGB, US Web Coated (SWOP) v2, 20% dot gain and
Black Ink—US
Web Coated (SWOP) v2 for grays.
So, to be clear:
RGB WS: Adobe RGB
CMYK WS: US Web Coated SWOP v2 (TR001)
Grey: K channel of CMYK WS
Spot: Standard Default 20% curve
I'm most wary of the CMYK setting, which
sets black limit at 100 and GCR at medium (just like
the default).
This is CUSTOM CMYK - not the values of the Adobe v2
profile.
This has been confused many times in the past.
The v2 profile has a 90% K limit and the GCR is not the
same as custom CMYK Medium GCR, but it does seem to be a havier or 'medium'
GCR more so than light or UCR.
I've based my current settings on what Dan's book
recommended, and I've
gotten good results. Should I conclude that the
printer's settings
are dubious?
No, you should conclude that the printers settings are
accurate and that they print to TR001 aimpoints.
If you have entered custom CMYK then you have changed
their CSF file, the popup menu should now read custom and not have the
original CSF name.
Do you mean that the CSF actually has legacy Custom
CMYK and not the v2 TR001 profile from Adobe?
Although these two profiles have 'swop' in their name -
they do not describe the same thing at all.
Stephen Marsh.
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 08:13:24 EDT
From: Dan Margulis
Subject: Re: Default Photoshop color settings
Jeremy writes,
I asked our printer for color settings and
specifications, and they sent me
a .csf file to load for proper color settings.
But I noticed that it is almost exactly the same as the U.S. Prepress
Defaults settings included with Photoshop—-
Adobe RGB, US Web Coated (SWOP) v2, 20% dot gain and
Black Ink—US
Web Coated (SWOP) v2 for grays. I'm most wary of the
CMYK setting, which
sets black limit at 100 and GCR at medium (just like
the default).
As Stephen points out, the black limit and GCR settings
are contained in the SWOP v2 setting, which cannot be altered or even
examined. When you change to Custom CMYK you get an older default. The 100%
ink limit you see is therefore not valid with these settings.
I've based my current settings on what Dan's book
recommended, and I've gotten good results. Should I conclude that the
printer's settings are dubious?
Most printers know almost nothing about Photoshop or
how to prepare files for printing. There are some happy exceptions who can
make our life much easier. It helps to find out which kind of printer
you're dealing with.
Here, the printer has, in response to your inquiry,
given you the Photoshop defaults as a file, as opposed to just telling you
to use Photoshop defaults. This is not a happy sign. Stephen has indicated
that you should assume that the printer prints to those specs. I
respectfully disagree. It may be true that they've looked at their output
and have made an intelligent decision to use these settings, but I
certainly wouldn't assume that.
If you can find out anything more about whether this
particular printer has any competence in this area you'll be way ahead. But
if all you have to go on is that they've fed you back the Photoshop
defaults then the odds are unfortunately good that they simply have no clue
about these matters, in which case you are left to your own devices.
Dan Margulis
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 12:40:23 -0000
From: Stephen Marsh
Subject: Re: Default Photoshop color settings
Agreed Dan, I was feeling in an uncharacteristic
optimistic mood in regards to the print industry when I wrote that. It does
assume two things - (a) that this profile is provides the right
colorimetric description and delivers appropriate GCR etc, and (b) that
this profile provides an accurate softproof of a file in CMYK or for a RGB
file going to CMYK and that they have controlled lighting/viewing
conditions and correctly calibrated and characterised monitors.
<sarcasm>How could one consider my original post
to be optimistic?
</sarcasm>
Stephen Marsh.
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 22:29:27 -0500
From: Jeremy Schultz
Subject: Re: Re: Default Photoshop color settings
I looked at the v2 profile that was installed with
Photoshop, and it had the same values as the profile the printer sent me
(100%K, med GCR, etc), so I assumed that they were the same. That1s not the
case?
Jeremy Schultz
Des Moines graphic designer
Design and illustration for print and the
web
2120 Grand Avenue, Suite 26
West Des Moines, Iowa 50265 USA
(515) 306-4348
http://jeremyschultz.com/
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 21:42:30 -0600
From: Chris Murphy
Subject: Re: Re: Default Photoshop color settings
On May 27, 2005, at 9:29 PM, Jeremy Schultz wrote:
I looked at the v2 profile that was installed with
Photoshop, and it had the
same values as the profile the printer sent me (100%K,
med GCR, etc), so I
assumed that they were the same. That's not the case?
When you say you "looked at the v2 profile"
do you mean you're going into Custom CMYK? That doesn't work because Custom
CMYK is a way to CREATE profiles. It is not a way to look at existing
profiles, or edit them.
Chris Murphy
Color Remedies (TM)
www.colorremedies.com/realworldcolor
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 10:53:04 -0700
From: "John Feld"
Subject: Re: Default Photoshop color settings
Dan writes:
If you can find out anything more about whether this
particular printer
has any competence in this area you'll be way ahead.
But if all you have to go
on is that they've fed you back the Photoshop defaults
then the odds are
unfortunately good that they simply have no clue about
these matters, in
which case you are left to your own devices.
Dan and anyone,
For the less informed in your audience, would you care
to suggest a manner in which this investigation of competence can be done?
In the real world, often the prepress guys are so pig-headed and/or busy
that they will not deem to talk with mere designer or photographer
(excluding readers of this list, of course), and even more often, all
enquiries are made through some customer service rep. So, even with some
knowledge of what is required, how can we judge a companies competence?
Certainly not by the samples in the front office, or the marketing hype
from a salesman.
Thanks
John
_________________________
John Feld
PC Graphics Report
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 15:52:27 -0500
From: Jeremy Schultz
Subject: Re: Re: Default Photoshop color settings
Yes, that's what I meant, but I realize what you1re
saying now. Thanks for correcting me, Chris, Dan & Stephen.
When you say you "looked at the v2 profile"
do you mean you're going
into Custom CMYK? That doesn't work because Custom CMYK
is a way to
CREATE profiles. It is not a way to look at existing
profiles, or edit them.
Jeremy Schultz
Des Moines graphic designer
Design and illustration for print and the
web
2120 Grand Avenue, Suite 26
West Des Moines, Iowa 50265 USA
(515) 306-4348
http://jeremyschultz.com/
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 23:43:18 -0700
From: J Walton
Subject: Re: Re: Default Photoshop color settings
In my experience, it's not that the prepress guys don't
want to talk to the client, it's just not something that we can initiate.
Someone has to say "I want to talk to a prepress guy right
now", or "I want a face-to-face meeting with your best prepress
guy."
Everytime I've done that the job goes smoother and the
client gets an education. But the client needs to ask for it if the
salesperson isn't smart enough to suggest it.
J
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 13:30:21 -0000
From: Louis Dina
Subject: Re: Default Photoshop color settings
Hi John.
I send a lot of jobs to press, and my basic rule is
that if I don't have complete, free access to the pre-press people, I go
elsewhere - period. It's nice if the sales person is knowledgeable
too, but as long as they admit when they are over their heads, that's fine
by me. The printing company needs to have that cooperative team attitude if
high quality work is expected to come out the other end, and if they don't
it suggests to me they just want to spit out whatever crap they can get the
client to accept regardless of quality. It has been my experience
that the pre-press people like to talk to someone who has some knowledge
and wants to learn more so he/she can deliver excellent files. It
saves them lots of headaches and time if the job is designed and delivered
properly up front. Of course, they need to balance that against
training a complete newbie, which can eat up ton of their time.
I always visit local printers before giving them a job, take a tour,
see their process and equipment, and spend time with the prepress people.
I also try to attend all press checks, since it sets a level of
expectation in their minds, at least when it comes to my jobs.
I find the good ones are almost good team players.
Lou
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 10:49:57 -0400
From: Terry Wyse
Subject: Re: Default Photoshop color settings
Common misconception that if you select the SWOP
profile and then you go to "Custom CMYK" that you're looking at
the actual settings of that profile. Not true as Dan, Stephen and others
pointed out.
As far as examining a profile, USWebCoatedSWOPv2 for
example, you can do some snooping both directly and indirectly. If you want
to find out K limit and total ink of a profile in Photoshop, simply create
a 0,0,0 RGB patch and either convert or soft-proof it. Keep in mind for
"real photos" you'll typically get less ink than what this tells
you since you'll not likely have large areas of 0,0,0 RGB, more like 8-32
RGB values for shadows with detail. The easiest thing to do for Photoshop
profile snooping is to have either a neutral gray RGB or Lab gray ramp with
which to examine a CMYK profile.
If you want a DIRECT look at a profile, then you can
use either Chromix ColorThink or X-Rite ColorShopX. For example, using CSX
and peaking at SWOPv2, it tells me the K limit is 90% with a 298% total ink
limit (you'd be hard-pressed to get more than about 85% K in actual image
conversions however). Midtone gray balance is a typical 50c41m41y with the
K start point around 45c37m37y (first printable black dot comes in around
45% cyan). Based on this, I would call this a light-to-medium GCR setting
but there is no standard for these terms. For me, a K start point of
between 25-35% (cyan) in the actual profile is what I prefer and *I* choose
to call this "medium GCR". :-)
Later,
Terry
_____________________________
WyseConsul
Color Management Consulting
704.843.0858
http://www.colormanagementgroup.com
http://www.wyseconsul.com (coming soon)
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:50:45 -0700
From: Ann-Marie Stillion
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1436
I think that often prepress and printers are just so
overloaded that they don't have the time. But honestly, my experience is
that the more sincere effort you make, warts and all, the more people will
try and help. Often, everybody is flying blind is my experience. After
almost 20 years on press as a designer off and on, I am just now beginning
to have real rapport with my press people but it's partly because I offer
real respect and try and ask (not too many) legitimate questions. At the
end of the day, if we really take stock of how many people really don't
know what they are doing every day—we would all pretty surprised. I
just try and think of myself as a sort of Don Quixote going forth—I
will reach my goal!!!!
my .02
Ann-Marie
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 00:36:51 EDT
From: Dan Margulis
Subject: Re: Re: Default Photoshop color settings
John Feld writes,
Dan and anyone,
For the less informed in your audience, would you care
to suggest a manner
in which this investigation of competence can be done?
In the real world, often the prepress guys are so
pig-headed and/or busy
that they will not deem to talk with mere designer or
photographer
(excluding readers of this list, of course), and even
more often, all
enquiries are made through some customer service rep.
This is more a question of psychology than color
theory. Everybody agrees that you try to steer work to a printer you have
faith in, and that you try to speak to the prepress people and not the CSRs
(warning: if you *do* manage to get through and speak to the prepress
people, make a resolution first that you will not get mad, no matter what.
CSRs are trained not to say anything that will cheese off a client, even
when the client deserves it. Prepress people are not.)
However, there are times when you can't do this, so
really the question is, how do you assess the competence of an unknown
printer that you're forced to work with if you only have access to a CSR?
The fundamental mistake that many people make in this
situation is to try to impress the CSR with how much about prepress they
know. The idea is not to intimidate her but to find out how much *her*
company knows about the subject, if anything.
My recommendation is to be as nonthreatening as
possible. That means being exceedingly respectful of the great expertise of
the printing company. It means implying that you have very rarely done this
kind of work before and could really use some help.
DON'T ask for Photoshop settings until you think that
there's some possibility they know what you're talking about. DO ask if
they have any kind of handout that the give out to people to help them
prepare files. Good companies often have them, bad ones usually don't.
DON'T ask what their ink limit is. DO say that you
heard from a friend that there can be a problem on press if you use too
much ink, is there any truth to that?
DON'T ask what brand of platesetter they use. DO ask
how they get your digital files onto the press.
DON'T mention profiles or the words "color
management." Do ask whether what you see on your monitor is what's
going to print on press.
These types of innocuous questions will very quickly
reveal whether the person you are dealing with (and by extension, the whole
company) is clueless. If such questions have never been asked, or if nobody
cares enough to give the CSRs pat answers to them, you know that you're not
going to be able to count on them for very much, PLUS you haven't made
yourself obnoxious enough to get second-rate service in the future.
Printers like to be buttered up almost as much as photographers do.
If still in doubt, there are two further investigative
tools. First, find out what happens when you ask a technical question that
sounds simple but that the CSR is unlikely to be able to answer. Like,
"is it true that if I just use the same percentage of each ink I'll
get a gray?" Find out whether she'll make something up, or refer the
question to somebody who she thinks knows the answer.
Second. Concoct some fairly simple technical problem.
Call the plant at 10 pm in a panic. Explain that you are a client and that
you have promised to show a proof of the job that they're going to print at
8 a.m. tomorrow, that's why you're calling tonite. If they don't have
somebody there who seems to know how to boot up Photoshop, that's a very
bad sign.
Certainly not by the samples in the front office, or
the marketing hype
from a salesman.
Certainly yes. You pick up the samples and compliment
them on the wonderful quality of the work and how you hope your job will
turn out just as well. When the salesman starts to beam, stick the knife
in. Ask if it wouldn't be possible to get the digital files that produced
two or three of the pictures, because you want to study them. Whatever that
guy did in Photoshop, you want to do it too! No need to tell him that
you've seen better printing off a color copier and that you're planning to
adjust your separation parameters based on how the other guy's stuff
printed. The salesman won't know what a separation parameter is anyway.
Playing dumb like this has very little downside. If the
responses you get indicate that there is intelligent life on this printer's
planet, then you go on from there. If they indicate that the printer has no
idea what happens in Photoshop, fine, you can live with that, too—and
at least you haven't made an enemy of the printer by showing how little he
knows about the subject.
Dan Margulis
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:18:13 -0700
From: Marco Ugolini
Subject: Re: Re: Default Photoshop color settings
Hello, Dan, and welcome back from Italy.
What you say here is very sensible, but I wonder
whether the fear of "making an enemy of the printer" should
really be a concern every single time. I mean no disrespect, but there's a
lot of babying and "kid-glove-type" handling in what you suggest.
I personally like to start from an assumption that we all, as
professionals, (a) can be trusted to separate personal feelings from
business, and (b) can get the answers we need without having to resort to
condescending to other professionals.
Mind you, I do NOT advocate verbal abuse (either
implied or explicit) and showing off one's "superior knowledge"
with the aim of making the CSR, or the prepress people, feel dumb. That is
childish and hostile, and certainly not a good idea. But in my years of
work with all sorts of print providers (and, hey, maybe I did it wrong the
whole time!), I would ask the "hard questions" almost from the
get go, with the understanding that if the CSR didn't know the answer,
he/she would direct me to the right person. And in the great majority of
cases I did get my answers. All in all, things worked.
What about CSRs with a thin skin and prepress operators
with a chip on their shoulder? There's one (or two, or three, etc...) in
every crowd, like in real life. As they say (somebody did...), whatchya
gonna do? My motto is: keep it professional, don't underestimate them and
don't let them underestimate you. The assumption must be that each of us
has a job to do and knows how to do it. And if he/she doesn't, on my part
I'll make sure to voice my opinion on the matter to my colleagues and warn
them.
As I said, whatchya gonna do...?
Best regards.
———————
Marco Ugolini
Mill Valley, CA
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:12:12 EDT
From: Dan Margulis
Subject: Re: Re: Default Photoshop color settings
Marco writes,
Hello, Dan, and welcome back from Italy.
Thank you, I have just about lost all the weight I
gained in that land of fine food.
What you say here is very sensible, but I wonder
whether the fear of
"making an enemy of the printer" should
really be a concern every single time.
Definitely not. If their proofing, outputting of files,
and/or press quality control is not adequate, by all means make enemies, if
that's what it takes to get them to do the job right.
That's not the situation here. The printer has supplied
a recommendation for how to prepare a separation in Photoshop. The only
question is whether there is the slightest reason to suppose that this
printer knows what he's talking about, or whether that recommendation
should be given as much weight as his prediction of who will win the
presidential election of 2032.
I mean no disrespect, but there's a lot of babying and
"kid-glove-type"
handling in what you suggest. I personally like to
start from an assumption that
we all, as professionals, (a) can be trusted to
separate personal feelings
from business, and (b) can get the answers we need
without having to resort to
condescending to other professionals.
A user who needs printers to give an answer about how
to make separations is in for a short but painful life in prepress. In any
case, the answer does not appear to be available—if the printer
doesn't know, we're not going to be able to teach him much by the time the
job gets printed.
What about CSRs with a thin skin and prepress operators
with a chip on
their shoulder? There's one (or two, or three, etc...)
in every crowd, like in
real life.
There are, but if they know nothing or a close
facsimile thereof about file preparation, then they can't help us no matter
how much we provoke them.
If the printer doesn't know what advice to give about
file prep, that's too bad, but we can live with it. If we raise a stink,
first of all the printer probably won't agree that he has to offer such
advice; second, he may have had experience in the past with jokers who
didn't check their numbers before they sent the file out and then blamed
the printer's color management when the job didn't print well, and he may
associate us with those people, to our later detriment; and third there's
not a blessed thing to be done at this point anyway.
If he messes up the printing, we *can't* live with
that, and there are things that he *can* do to remedy the situation, like
reprint the job in an extreme case. In getting him to live up to his
responsibilities a little foul language may not be inappropriate. But its
impact won't be nearly as effective if we've already raised a stink about
something that he doesn't think is his responsibility and in which he could
never have assisted us in the first place.
Dan Margulis
___________________________________________________________________________
Subj: Re: Default Photoshop color settings
Date: Monday, May 30, 2005 12:21:21 PM
From: Gary Owens
Hi Dan and group,
The most important thing I've learned as a photographer
is to let the photolab do there job. When the job comes back wrong that's
when you ask questions and make suggestions. It's no different with
prepress.
Here are some suggestions:
1. If dealing with a photolab keep a supply of there
order envlopes at home. Fill out the envelopes at home and drop them off at
the lab. This saves much time and frustration and reduces errors.
2. If I'm sending a strip of negatives in for
enlargements I write over the frame that is to be printed; what is to be
printed. And I also put a copy of my proof (wallet size printed 3 up; one
to customer, two for me)in the envelope.
3. If I get an order back that isn't printed right I
write instructions on a sticky note; stick it on the envelope and take it
back to the lab.
4. If I start seeing too many errors from the lab and
don't get any satisfaction I walk out the door.
5. In selecting a photolab; prepress; or printer submit
a test job to see how the business performs and treats you. Then tell them
you are a professional looking for relaible services.
Remember we are the customer and we are right; but we
have to communicate with the vendor as teammates.
Gary Owens
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 23:10:57 -0600
From: Ron Kelly
Subject: Re: Default Photoshop color settings
On 29-Jun-05, at 2:50 PM, Ann-Marie Stillion wrote:
I think that often prepress and printers are just so
overloaded that they
don't have the time. But honestly, my experience is
that the more sincere
effort you make, warts and all, the more people will
try and help. Often,
everybody is flying blind is my experience. After
almost 20 years on press
as a designer off and on, I am just now beginning to
have real rapport with
my press people but it's partly because I offer real
respect and try and
ask (not too many) legitimate questions. At the end of
the day, if we
really take stock of how many people really don't know
what they are doing
every day—we would all pretty surprised. I just
try and think of myself as
a sort of Don Quixote going forth—I will reach my
goal!!!!
Ann-Marie:
Why is this the scariest post in the recent past?
Because it hits home; it rings true.
And yet, I like your final part, which is an optimistic
one. It also resonates.
We like to think the world is getting to a better
place, and if we believe, it will happen.
Thanks,
Ron Kelly
___________________________________________________________________________