Untitled Document

Folks,

The management of this list is contemplating moving it away from yahoogroups in favor of being hosted by dgrin.com. We solicit members' opinions as to the desirability of this action, or any suggestions as to what may go wrong if we do it.

The reason for this move is not to change the list's identity--it would continue to be operated by the same group of moderators with most of the same rules, and we can move it elsewhere if this doesn't work out--but to improve the interface and to make the list more convenient to use. Increasing the volume of messages or the number of membersare not motivating factors.

Particularly, we expect the following improvements:

*All messages will be arranged into threads and archived immediately and indefinitely in thread form. To see how this operates, I'd suggest visiting dgrin.com and checking out some of the forums, notably the one entitled "The Finishing School" which deals mostly with Photoshop manipulation. (We would not be merging with this forum but rather operating separately under a different set of rules.)

*As can be seen, each member has a signature block. In light of this list's strong tradition against anonymous posting, we will require that the block contain (in small print) the member's full name. This will eliminate the practice of rejecting posts for lack of a signature.

*We are given to understand that in addition to the current general options that members have for receiving messages (receive all messages, a digest of all messages at specified intervals, or no messages--must go to the site) we will also be able to override them on a thread-by-thread basis. That is, a person who otherwise would not be receiving every message may find a certain thread particularly interesting and subscribe to it so that all messages will be sent to him when posted. A person who otherwise receives all messages may decide that a particular thread is not worthwhile and unsubscribe from it. Furthermore, you have the option of designating that you will ignore messages from certain members.

*The list messages support embedded images. High-resolution images are not recommended; also, embedded images can only be sRGB. However, dgrin will provide essentially unlimited space for list members to post images separately in any format.

We have wanted to make these types of changes in list format for some time and have explored the possibility of acquiring suitable software and having ledet.com host the list rather than yahoogroups. All our moderators, however, have busy professional lives and it is time to concede that we would never find time to implement this ourselves. Dgrin approached us; we have great respect for them and they for us. For example, dgrin has run extremely active chapter-by-chapter threads about both Canyon Conundrum and PP5E. Search my name on the dgrin forums and you may reach the conclusion (as I have, with some regret) that there is somewhat more discussion of the topics that this group nominally studies on dgrin than here.

Some things about the prospective move are unknown. For example, we believe, but we are not sure, that we can simply duplicate the membership list with all its preferences and thus avoid requiring everybody to sign up again. Nevertheless, there is likely to be some aggravation at the startup.

We also will be continuing the yahoogroups list at least until it becomes clear that the dgrin list is functioning the way we envisioned, presumably with threads duplicated on both lists for an interim period. Thereafter, we don't know what we'll do with yahoogroups--possibly continue it for special announcements or as a forum specifically for ACT attendees.

What is *not* going to happen is a flood of off-topic posts by new members. The membership has made its preference known for more aggressive moderation. The fact that the new list would be threaded would assist us in keeping marginally off-topic threads going longer than we can now. For example, the recent thread about the qualifications needed for hiring Photoshop technicians was marginally on-topic but we did close it while ideas were being exchanged, on the grounds we could not justify exposing every member to it. If we had been on dgrin we would probably have left the thread open, knowing that people who were not interested could unsubscribe from the thread.

OTOH, while we will continue our policy of allowing established list members to launch brief threads on almost any topic, we will adhere to the practice of ending threads that are becoming extended discussions of matters that are clearly not in our charter, such as topics that are of interest only to photographers, that belong on the ColorSync list, that are limited to specific software and/or hardware outside of Photoshop, or that use the list as a general Photoshop help desk.

As at present, membership in the list would be open to all, but only members would be allowed to access the area. As at present, moderator approval would be required for a post to appear. Depending upon how the situation develops, we might switch to a system where our most active members are whitelisted so that their posts can appear immediately without moderator approval. We do not contemplate allowing strangers to post without moderation.

As indicated last week, I will update the list archives at http://www.ledet.com/margulis/ACT_postings/ACT.htm during my trip to Atlanta in early June. This is expected to include the best threads up to around 3/07. I will also add some Makeready columns, if available, to http: //www.ledet.com/margulis/articles.html . Both areas are open to non-members and Sterling has indicated that he intends to keep them available indefinitely; however, future list archives will be hosted by dgrin if we make the move.

I am on the road almost continuously until mid-June. That's likely when we would make the move, which gives us ample time to discuss it.

Thanks in advance to list members for any advice that may be offered, and special thanks to Stephen, Darren, and John for their efforts in keeping the list running smoothly.

Dan Margulis

___________________________________________________________________________

My only concern is that people are less likely to find it by accident. Someone might come to Yahoo to see if there were any groups about Photoshop and discover this group. (If that argument sounds too liberal....that person may not have your books yet!)

___________________________________________________________________________

Awesome idea. I hate all this HTML crap that Yahoo has started adding. Plus having to log in to Yahoo before i can get into the group. And being at Yahoo's mercy doesn't help matters any.

As long as a message goes out on this group when the new one is available, everyone should be able to join over there (and if they're name's already entered, I would think the new software would bounce back a message to that effect).

I say Sayonara, Yahoo! All the free stuff is great for amateur and social interaction, but it's quickly becoming detrimental to any professional users. And one day they'll probably pull the plug when they can't "monetize" the ColorTheory list.

My buffalo nickel,

Matthew Rigdon

___________________________________________________________________________

Though I have some trepedation about any change to a resource as useful as this list has been, the proposed changes appear to be for the better. I'm particularly looking forward to posts that include images.

Mike Russell

www.curvemeister.com/forum/

___________________________________________________________________________

Congratulations and Excellent. Can't happen soon enough!

Mark Segal

___________________________________________________________________________

I support this change fully - I'm confident it will enhance our ability to find topics of interest and follow the threads in a more efficient fashion than possible at present,

___________________________________________________________________________

I am all for it. What could possibly go 'wronger' than Yahoo?

Maris V. Lidaka Sr.

___________________________________________________________________________

Just to be clear:

We would be moving from a mailing list (where I can respond by email rather than going to the site), to a forum.

While I prefer this format for my own selfish reasons, I can see the possibilities. I would prefer not, but will certainly go along if this is the decision.

Regards,

Ruth Harvey

___________________________________________________________________________

Where ever you go I will follow!

Murray DeJager

___________________________________________________________________________

I have used dgrin for a while and therefore I fully support this move. I know that dgrin works well and so I am confident that this will be for the better.

___________________________________________________________________________

I've had good experience with dgrin, and support this idea. The only objection I've seen so far is that people can find the list now by scanning the Yahoo groups. Wouldn't the change make it more likely that actual posts would start appearing as results from internet search engines, like google?

Duffy Pratt

___________________________________________________________________________

I do hope that one could continue to subscribe to an email copy of the forum. While forums can provide a nice user interface, I enjoy being able to read mailinglist emails while disconnected from the net. For example, while travelling by train/airplane which is when I have the most "free time" to read.

- jim washer

___________________________________________________________________________

I, too, dislike forums. I archive this list myself, and annotate posts I find useful. I would not be able to do that efficiently if it were in forum form.

Is anybody interested in setting it up as a standard hosted mailing list a la the Lyris Photoshop List?

I'd be willing to pay a certain amount of money to fund such a thing, though I have no idea what it might cost. I'll look into it.

Cheers,

_andrew webb

___________________________________________________________________________

Sounds good, Dan. Can the archives be searched as in Yahoo!?

don

--

don schaefer

___________________________________________________________________________

That's my concern as well Ruth. Right now, all of my group correspondence is done through email. That makes it very convenient to sort and archive those messages I want to keep or reply to on my own system. The extra step of having to log in to a forum just isn't likely to happen on a timely basis. So if individual emails are possible, I'd be all for it. Otherwise, I'm against.

___________________________________________________________________________

By all means let us move...

___________________________________________________________________________

I had not considered this when I 'voted' yes. I agree with James Washer, and much prefer email mailing lists to web forums. If dgrin.com is web forum only, I would have to reluctantly disagree with moving the group there.

Maris V. Lidaka Sr.

___________________________________________________________________________

While I have a strong dislike for Yahoo policies and would prefer to dissociate from them, I very much prefer the ability to receive new list entries without having to be proactive in any way to make that happen. So I would disapprove of a new format that did not have that capability.

Have you checked out the groups at lassosoft.com? The primary InDesign group operates through lassosoft, and that works fine with me.

I would prefer a protocol that includes email delivery of messages and the ability to reespond by email, even if that were to preclude the ability to attach graphics or use HTML formatting in posts.

Rick Gordon

___________________________________________________

RICK GORDON

EMERALD VALLEY GRAPHICS AND CONSULTING

___________________________________________________

WWW: http://www.shelterpub.com

___________________________________________________________________________

.

I am in favour of this action. Good luck with it and thanks for providing such a resource in the first place.

Kind regards

Nick D

--

Nick Dunmur - photographer

Nottingham,UK

+441159509685

___________________________________________________________________________

Hello, I am an amateur learner listener on this list.

Some of the subjects are a bit too professional for me, but I enjoy reading them. It took me a long time to 'find' you.

I rather fear that if you move to dgrin that you will have lots of inexperienced people trying to ask a lot of questions that are so obvious to most of you, that the tone of the list will disappear (or you will have an awful lot of moderating to do) - and then the current people will leave.

How often do you search archives and read threads? - the idea of passing on knowledge is very powerful, but IMHO archives are rarely used.

Persumably you know the mixture of the 3000+ members of the list, in terms of writers, readers and questioners - how will things change?

Good luck with you decision.

___________________________________________________________________________

.

I disagree with moving the group as well.

Garnetta

At 02:48 AM 4/20/2007, you wrote:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Garnetta Sullivan

Sullivan Creative

http://SullivanCreative.net

660-827-7003

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

___________________________________________________________________________

This is a big YES.

adriano

___________________________________________________________________________

I also disagree with moving to dgrin. I have so many places I must log into

every day. I like the email model.

Steve

--

Steve Hirsch

IT Director

Urban Studio

212-691-2521

___________________________________________________________________________

I find the reasons offered for retaining the email format thoroughly unconvincing. These kind of discussion Lists served a purpose in the previous century when discussion board formats were less well developed than they are today. Formats such as dgrin, Luminous-Landscape Forum, etc.) are infinitely superior to email lists in terms of their ability to facilitate the organization, categorization and research of information - which forms an important part of the usefulness of discussion lists or forums. The current board formats are also much more user-friendly for carrying a discussion, selectively quoting previous contributors and they avoid all the extraneous rubbish from Yahoo that we now need to put-up with.

The argument that email lists are more convenient for people on airplanes doesn't stand-up to serious scrutiny. You still need an internet connection to download the email, and if you want on off-line record of a discussion board string, all you need to do is copy-paste the board material into an MSWord document, then re-open and read once you board the aircraft. Or create an off-line download of the web-page and open it in your browser while not connected to the web. Whether on a forum board or an email list, you still need that internet connection to respond to anything.

The argument that more people will be attracted to a Yahoo-type list than to a web forum also doesn't stand up to serious scrutiny. The major determinant of website usage is whether people find them useful and user-friendly. Initial exposure to a website happens in many ways for which the format of the site itself is irrelevant. And since the overwhelming majority of web discussions are carried on forum formats these days, this will be more welcomed by more people. The Yahoo-type List is increasingly seen as a relic of the past and as time goes on fewer and fewer people will be comfortable using it.

Mark Segal

___________________________________________________________________________

I agree wholeheartly

Al Pomina

___________________________________________________________________________

As I am a new subscriber, I will just say it was hard to find this list. If we setup forums we should allow for guests like myself to lurk and learn.

Joe

___________________________________________________________________________

Dan,

I'm sure you and others have thought long and hard about this, and what's best for the advancement of color theory and color correction. Here's my two bits:

Benefits of YahooGroups: All messages are emailed and can be responded to via email. This makes it the easiest format for full membership discussion.

Detriment of YahooGroups: Lousy search implementation. Lousy access and interface for online use (i.e., user using web site to read and post). Buggy implementation of HTML messaging. Relatively limited disk space for group's photos and files. Lousy implementation for viewing images.

Benefits of PHP forum format: Intuitive site structure promotes easy mining of knowledge base. Easy to post images and graphics. Excellent search implementation. Ability to embed HTML in posts to help with communication to others.

Detriments of PHP forum format: User must access posts and discussions via web browser. Greater possibility for divergent discussions. Greater possibility for the occasional aberrant user to post nonsense or strident comments.

Personally, I enjoy reading my YahooGroups batch emails with my morning coffee. No browsing, just an easy read of an email. (However, given all the tech savvy of Yahoo I'm surprised they haven't developed a more mature, robust interface that combines the benefits of both an email server and PHP forum.)

If you do move the forum, I think initially there will be a few "speed bumps", but after everyone gets used to the structure then good discussion and image examples will become abundant.

Cheers ~

Chris Brown

___________________________________________________________________________

John, Dan and others,

Two things I'd rather not have:

(1)-- I too prefer getting the messages in daily e-mail. If the new site will support this fine. Otherwise I'd prefer another choice.

(2)-- The part in Dan's message that reads "A person who otherwise receives all messages may decide that a particular thread is not worthwhile and unsubscribe from it. Furthermore, you have the option of designating that you will ignore messages from certain members."

The delete or the arrow key seems more than sufficient for dealing with this. That we could become so short-sighted that we know in advance what's worthwhile or more importantly who's writing will never ever add to our knowledge is a sad comment on our willingness to tolerate the sheer variety of knowledge and experiences that the present group offers. To offer any option for a seemingly democratic self-censorship is one I dislike stongly.

In its mildest form we end up being mired in posts that lack of awareness of current discussions. In its worst we let ourselves be deluded into thinking that what we understand now doesn't change.

___________________________________________________________________________

.

I was as much behind moving ACT to dgrin as anyone. Let me explain what was behind my thinking.

I've taken Dan's class 3 times and each time I've gotten a lot out of it. I've read both of his books more than once and was a beta-reader of PP5E. What I loved about both the classes and the book was the interaction of theory and of case studies which show (and in some case challenge) the application of that theory.

When I became a moderator of ACT, it was with the goal of trying to refresh this list and bring more case studies to it. I have tried to do this a few times, but found that the format was a big impediment. In each case, I was pretty much flodded with private email containing creditable attempts and thoughts. Making these available to the whole group for side by side comparisons was just too much work.

In contrast, I participated in numerous such case studies on dgrin and I think they have been very successful and have captured a lot of the spirit of one of Dan's classes.

Consider the reading groups for each of Dan's books:

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=18203

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=48066

Or consider these particular threads:

http://dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=58886

http://dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=2044

http://dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=58191

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=52033

The thread centric format combined with inline images makes this sort of discussion particularly convenient and thus encourages it. The current format, on the other hand, tends to favor theoretical discussions disassociated from application to particular images. This list as suffered greatly from this tendency. I don't need to be specific about it, anyone who has subscribed here for a while will remember endless debates and discussions without (much) reference to practice. When one of thes hoary old issues arose on dgrin, it was dispatched after a relatively little discussion and with a fairly large increase in understanding on all sides (including mine):

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=27460

As to the problems people envision with the new format, let me make a couple of suggestions.

1. Sign up to dgrin and take it for a spin. Don't let theory without practice or fear of the unknown make up your mind for you. In theory I prefer email lists as well, but in practice, I have learned that boards such as dgrin work better for discussion of all topics related to photography, including post processing.

2. Let's evaluate specific issues (such as using email to post without a browser) practically. How often do you actually have email access without a browser? How often do you use it?

3. If some specific issues really pass the test of being practical problems, let's look for solutions within the context of this proposal. The dgrin people have been very flexible and willing to accomadate our needs.

-- John Ruttenberg

___________________________________________________________________________

.

I vote "yes" on the move.

I also don't care to have to use a browser/forum to view messages but the idea of being able to subscribe to particular threads that are of interest to me and get notifications is worth the inconvenience to me.

Regards,

Terry Wyse

_____________________________

WyseConsul

Color Management Consulting

G7 Certified Expert

704.843.0858

http://www.wyseconsul.com

http://www.colormanagementgroup.com

___________________________________________________________________________

Maybe we should have a look at Google Groups as well. Like many others, I dislike Yahoo, but email messages are very convenient for most of us I think. Google provides both a suitable archive and messaging.

___________________________________________________________________________

For those of you unfamiliar with how modern web forums inter-face with email, many of them give you the option to be notified of new posts, and the posts come into your email box in full. You can also manage which threads come and don't come to you by email. Very flexible and convenient. And when you respond, to comply with rules of Dan's List, you will no longer need the cumbersome process of carefully editing-out of a text box much of the stuff you are responding to, including the Yahoo rubbish.

For those of you unfamiliar with managing log-ins: all you need to do is either not log-out before you leave the site, or log-out and let your browser retain your password, so as soon as you begin to type your user-name, your password gets filled, you click Enter, and bingo - you're in!

Sorry if this sounds like "Using Web Forums 101", but it really is a totally viable, easy, convenient and superior format to email, while allowing one to configure it to retain the convenience of email for those who want this.

Mark Segal

___________________________________________________________________________

Email notice of posts provides spontaneous interactivity between members, akin to brainstorming, that may be lost in a forum format. Whether or not that outweighs the organizational benefits of a forum is hard to for me to predict.

Les De Moss

DigiGraphics LLC

___________________________________________________________________________

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 08:43:57 -0400

"Mark Segal" wrote:

So, I get up early in the morning, boot the laptop, start email, jump in the shower, get dressed shut off the laptop and jump in a cab....

OR

I boot the laptop, and connect, one at a time, to the 20 or so various forums that have replaced the 20 or so yahoo groups I currently belong to. On each forum, I cut and paste any number of threads into word documents. Oh, and let's not forget to clean up the word docs from yesterday..

Yeah, that's just as easing as the email approach.

jim washer

___________________________________________________________________________

Like others, I prefer an email list to a forum as one receives emails passively while you must make the effort to pull up a forum, log in and find your specific group or topic(s). However I note that in Dan's message proposing this idea he said:

This sounds like the forum posts would be pushed out to people's email (perhaps optionally?). That being said, even if there isn't an email option I would follow the group if it went this direction.

I would like to say to Mark that while he prefers forums and lists many obvious benefits that doesn't mean they are the "proper" way to run a group on the internet. There are also benefits to a group conducted via email some of which have been noted by other posters. This is a personal preference issue. Listing advantages you see in a forum setting is one thing, but insisting those who prefer an email-based list don't have compelling reasons for that preference won't advance the discussion.

RJay

___________________________________________________________________________

Hi All

My vote to the move is aye.

Would also like to take this opportunity to thank all the list members for sharing their knowledge and expertise. I have learned so much from this group.

Thank you.

JJ Jones

___________________________________________________________________________

.

The dgrin.com (not drgin.com as I found out) supports RSS. What this means is you can use a program called a news reader (like NetNewsWire or NewsFire [my current choice] on Mac, there are available newsreaders for Windows) in order to subscribe. At intervals you specify, the news reader will check for new posts to the forum by checking the RSS feed. The RSS feed tells you the thread name and the time it was posted. Then you can click on that in your news reader and it will take you to the particular page in the forum. Every page has an RSS link, so you can use your newsreader to keep up with an entire forum as well as any of the subforums, all the way down to individual threads. So, in this way, you can always monitor the RSS feed of the entire Colortheory forum, then just subscribe to the RSS feeds of each individual thread that you're interested in. When a new post appears, your news reader will alert you. Any threads that you aren't interested in will show up in the main forum RSS, but you can safely ignore.

If you are cut off from internet access, you won't be able to download a bunch of emails and read them, but if you're carrying a laptop around that's been built in the last three years, it will have wireless capability and internet access (often free) is often available, especially in airports and hopefully (soon for those of you who are desperate to work on a plane) on airplanes in the US. Anyone who does travel often should sign up for <http://anchorfree.com/>, a website that helps you locate free Wi-fi hotspots around the world.

HTH,

Matthew Rigdon

___________________________________________________________________________

I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other about the list vs. forum debate, although I suppose I lean towards a forum, as you can post images, etc. in a much easier fashion than we can currently with YahooGroups. And many lists are email-only, with no server space for posting files.

However, I have to say that I dislike vBulliten so much (I really don't understand why anyone chooses it over phpBB), so dgrin.com looks less appealing to me simply because they use it. If I'm forced to I will, but I won't like it at all.

This is not a very active list (we go through spurts, but on the whole the traffic is very light compared to many other lists I'm on, where hundreds of emails are sent daily). Many people who already pay for web hosting get some sort of discussion list feature included (I know I do, with DreamHost) so perhaps someone who has the bandwidth free could just move the list to their server?

In the end, I trust the combined intelligence of the list to make a very good choice, no matter what it may be. I am of the opinion that just about *anything* is preferrable to YahooGroups.

BRIAN PYLANT

Manager, Electronic Prepress

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::

Disc Makers

7905 North Route 130, Pennsauken, NJ 08110

___________________________________________________________________________

Mark Segal wrote:

Superior in "organization, categorization and research" - fine, but still as convenient as receiving email? "selectively quoting" and "avoid[ing] all the extraneous rubbish" is a simple select & cut procedure.

Email lists are morre convenient to access - period. Has little to do with airplanes. I check my email anyway - one click and I'm there. No accessing a website; no log-on.

Maris V. Lidaka Sr.

___________________________________________________________________________

.

Jay,

I never used the word "proper" - I said more up-to-date, and I arguedthat the benefits of the forum approach outweigh the factors for retention of an email approach. If I happen to think that some of the reasons offered for retaining the email approach have little substance or little general applicability it does advance the discussion to say so and say why. Otherwise we just talk past eachother.

While I agree it is partly a matter of personal preference, I also think John Ruttenberg has suggested a number of objective factors that make a rather convincing case for the format change. Personal preferences also change over time - we get accustomed to all kinds of new things that bring certain benefits the older things didn't have. Yes, we may sacrifice a few features of the previous incarnation in the process, but judgments need to be made on the balanace of the pros and cons. I know not everyone is with me on this, and so be it, but I'm quite prepared to adapt my preferences if I think the balance of pros and cons objectively points to the merits of a change in habits.

Mark Segal

___________________________________________________________________________

On Apr 19, 2007, at 10:13 PM, James Washer wrote:

I'll second (or third!) that. Email or RSS feeds are my core mechanism for tracking all fora.

Graham Bird

___________________________________________________________________________

Mark,

All of what you write sounds wonderful. More so if it was benefits I thought about and desired. Other than not liking Yahoo and wanting another choice for host I prefer the non-web daily e-mail.

Lee Clawson

2/\V/\7 Studio

___________________________________________________________________________ .

MARK SEGAL wrote:

Sounds like an extra step - I'm notified of the post, but I have to access the forum to receive the post? Or is the post email-forwarded automatically unless I decline posts in the thread?

Again, balderdash - not a problem to select and cut extraneous matter (has to be done in either event), nor to select and cut the Yahoo rubbish.

That is one problem with Yahoo - it claims to retain my infor for 2 weeks, but doesn't even keep it 1 minute.

So long as this is true I'm for the move. I'll follow up on John Ruttenberg's suggestions later today when I have time.

Maris V. Lidaka Sr.

___________________________________________________________________________ .

Dan,

While I'm always open to new ideas and new opinions, my own feelings after visiting the dgrin.com site is that it lacks the hard-edged professionalism of the current forum. Also, it's hard enough now to find the time to go through all the posts when they are arranged as serial e-mails. If we have to wade through all the friendly posts, cheerful comments, and contributors' portraits in order to pick up the significant messages, it might prove burdensome for those of us with limited time. Whether or not it's an advantage to be able to see images along with the messages is a big question mark. We have access to any posted images now without havng to scroll through all of them in order to get to the text posts.

My primary concern is because I've seen more than one new-and-improved venture lose its customer base once it loses its original flavor. Maybe I've missed something objectionable about the way Yahoo runs its site, but it hasn't been noticeable. I log on for the posts, save those of interest, then log off and get on with my work. As long as the information is available it doesn't bother me if the folks at Yahoo are making faces at me from behind a curtain.

Maybe the real problem is that those of us who are wary of the move are too set in our ways, but I don't see how that is possible in this field. You either adapt daily or you perish. Just as a safety net, perhaps you can leave the door ajar in case we need to come back home.

I'll follow you, of course, hoping all the way that this works out as well as the majority feels it will.

Howard Smith

___________________________________________________________________________

I like receiving the daily digests by email; and, as such, read almost all digests and have learned much from Dan and contributors to the list I would probably not be reading the list very often if it were only available as an online Forum. BTW, my settings for Yahoo deliver the digest in threaded format.

Ina Bechhoefer

___________________________________________________________________________

Way to go! Mr. Dan...

Un gran abrazo desde Costa Rica...

Carlos Garro

___________________________________________________________________________

Jim,

I also mentioned that you can download the web page directly and read it as an off-line HTML document. Yes I agree, if you subscribe to many email forums and need to download all of them frequently it is definitely more effort. I'd like to know how many people would be seriously inconvenienced by the need to achieve all their downloads just before running to an airport. Are we talking about a 2% of the readership 2% of the time or 40% of the readership 40% of the time? Or more or less? There are real issues and straw issues. It all depends! I believe John posted a number of huge benefits to the dgrin format against which to put this factor in perspective.

Mark Segal

___________________________________________________________________________

Dear Dan and you frequent contributors that I have enjoyed reading so much on a daily basis,

If I don't get my emails automatically like I do now, then I fear (?) that the ColorTheory Group will eventually disappear from my life. I've got so much to do besides reminding myself to check a forum every day.

"Loin des yeux loin du coeur" which means something like: "far from your eyes far from your heart".

André Dumas

___________________________________________________________________________

Yes, I vote for Dgrin

___________________________________________________________________________

Maris,

I subscribe to Luminous-Landscape, for example. It is a web forum. The new messages that come to my EMAIL INBOX come there IN FULL - that is, you see the whole text in your email; there is also a link right underneath the post that I can click and it takes me from my email directly into the web forum, so I can respond immediately on the forum. I don't need to worry about deleting or shortening the message I'm responding to (Dan's rules), or deleting Yahoo advertising, because one message just follows another. It also provides a "quote/reply" button so I can easily select the material I wish to respond to, and the quote and response are clearly differentiated from each other within the reply post. You don't have ANY extraneous matter that needs to be cut when responding to posts in a web forum. And I find selecting and cutting the Yahoo rubbish a nuisance I would prefer to be liberated from.

Mark Segal

___________________________________________________________________________

Enough already. Can't these replies be sent directly to the appropriate decision-maker? I don't really need to know everyone's opinion.

Preston Earle

www.SawdustForBrains.blogspot.com

___________________________________________________________________________

I've missed something objectionable about the way Yahoo runs its site, but it hasn't been noticeable.

It's *very* noticable to me... I've suggested moving from YahooGroups for years (be it to another list or a forum, either way), the primary reason being to maybe -- just maybe -- receive every message. I constantly see replies to messages I never received; my guesstimate is that I probably receive about 80% of the list messages at most. And this is true for every YahooGroup I subscribe to, and regardless of where I check my email (i.e. it's not a Firewall or spamfilter issue.)

Some say "well, just log on to the group and check it there" to which my response is, if we're going to do that then we might as well move to another forum, because there are many (again, the aforementioned phpBB comes first to mind) that do it a LOT better than YahooGroups.

BRIAN PYLANT

Manager, Electronic Prepress

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::

Disc Makers

7905 North Route 130, Pennsauken, NJ 08110

Toll free: 1-800-468-9353 ext. 5539

___________________________________________________________________________

Howard,

"Hard-edge professionalism" depends on what people say in the material, not the GUI. I find it easier to use Luminous-Landscape, for example, than to use this format. I can breeze through the new stuff of any interest to me there in no time, and be selective about what I wish to read, retain or ignore. And it is so easy to reference back to previous discussions in the same or parallel or previous threads. I really believe that after a few days of using the new format, very, very few people will want to revert to Yahoo.

Mark Segal

___________________________________________________________________________

Go ahead & switch. I hate Yahoo Groups. Last year, I made the mistake of joining another Yahoo group under another email address. This created total confusion with browser cookies, and I don't know if I can even post to this group any more. This is a test. My only concern is that dgrin.com looked a little low brow, and this group has been very professional, which I enjoy.

___________________________________________________________________________

There is nothing as simple and familiar to everyone as Yahoo Groups. I've had groups move before and, though I know it's my shortcoming, my interest has fizzled out. I would think more harm than good would come from moving. But that's just me...a not-so-active member!

Michael Ray White

Michael Ray White Photography

"The perfect blend of photojournalistic reportage & artistic interpretation"

www.michaelraywhite.com

770-745-4117 Atlanta

504-432-5216 New Orleans

800-837-8272 National

___________________________________________________________________________

Looking at the FAQs of Luminous-Landscape, I only see where you can get email delivery of the threads that you have posted to. If so, that is a very different matter than getting EVERY email. I learn a great deal by finding things I wasn't looking for. And having a day's worth of mail where I can scan every message -- not going in and out of threads -- is what works for me.

Rick Gordon

___________________________________________________

RICK GORDON

EMERALD VALLEY GRAPHICS AND CONSULTING

___________________________________________________

WWW: http://www.shelterpub.com

___________________________________________________________________________

I vote for the status quo.

Henry Davis

___________________________________________________________________________

But that does not appear to be the protocol of dgrin, as I check it out as a glance. They're RSS feeds. If it can be configured so that each message can be received separately and as a digest (though I hate digests, some want them) as emails, then I'm OK with it. Otherwise, I'm fiercely opposed.

If dgrin won't work that way, and you want to go this route, then follow Luminous Landscape's model with a provider who will do that.

I'm definitely concerned that if it moves to a format where email delivery is not possible, you will see both a loss of key correspondents and, I fear, a plethora of new members whose skills are not up to keeping the conversation pertinent.

Rick Gordon

------------------

On 4/20/07 at 12:08 PM -0400, Mark Segal wrote in a message entitled

"Re: [colortheory] Proposal to move the list":

___________________________________________________

RICK GORDON

EMERALD VALLEY GRAPHICS AND CONSULTING

___________________________________________________

WWW: http://www.shelterpub.com

___________________________________________________________________________

On Apr 20, 2007, at 7:49 AM, MARK SEGAL arranged some pixels so they looked like this:

Horse hockey. You have to explicitly subscribe to EVERY topic if you want to get everything delivered. That means you have to go to the site and make sure you haven't missed something. I take several vfx classes online and the forum system there is very similar to the one at DGRIN. It's a huge PITA and I hate it. I like having the whole list flow in. I read it very quickly, filter out the stupid arguments with a firm finger on the Delete key, and archive the interesting bits. I don't have to go through any rigamarole finding threads and copying bits into a separate application. Most email clients are thread-aware these days, including Mac Mail, which I use.

On Apr 20, 2007, at 6:43 AM, Mark Segal arranged some pixels so they looked like this:

Funny, I didn't realize that you were the one we had to convince. Your tone is thoroughly offensive. We're not a bunch of drooling idiots.

Sure they do. I grab all my mail before I get on the plane and I read it in-flight. Again, no rigamarole.

----------

Clicking on threads and subscribing to bits and saving off-line weird-format archivally-suspect web archives is a lot more work than clicking "Get Mail".

The idea that we should abandon a flawed-but-viable, useful format because it is "increasingly seen as a relic of the past" (what are you Segal, the Voice of the People?) is ridiculous. We want a _trendier_ format?!

I've been on the Net since there was a Net to be on, and I have never liked the forum format. I do understand that this proposed move is not my decision, and I urge people to go and read some DGRIN stuff. Pretend you care about the content and imagine yourselff checking the site every day, trying to find new posts, trying to save interesting bits. I think you'll find that it's far more hassle than it's worth.

If we're all upset that we can't easily post pictures, I'll be happy to buy a domain and some webspace (it's $6USD per month for 5Gigs of storage and 250GB of transfer!) and I'll release the FTP info onto the list. With an upload cap to prevent wackos from abusing it, it should work fine.

Man, I sure am grouchy this morning.

Cheers,

_andrew webb

___________________________________________________________________________

Preston Earle:

Well, if we were on dgrin right now, you could just unsubscribe to the thread. It's a great example of one big advantage.

-- John Ruttenberg

___________________________________________________________________________

.

My preference for receiving this group is via e-mail. I like that "in my inbox and with my cup of coffee in the morning" thing. I receive it as the text-only digest and with no HTML "Yahoo crap" other than the link at the top to each message. Yes, the e-mail may become unnecessarily long due to folks not deleting all but the relevant portion of the e-mail that they are replying to, but I find it no problem to scroll past what I'm not interested in.

That being said, while I haven't yet perused dgrin, if they have an RSS feed that could be pretty good to me. RSS can be pretty convenient. (I use the WIZZ RSS plugin in my Firefox browser)

Ken Dawes

--

Ken Dawes Photography

Specializing in images of Wineries, Vineyards and the California coast.

Mountain Vines Publishing, LLC<3D%22http: //www.mountainvinespub.com%22>

___________________________________________________________________________

Sounds like a useful move, but, I'm not clear whether dgrin sends posts in digest form to members' email boxes or whether one has to log on to the dgrin site in order to read posts ... can someone clarify? Thanks.

Jeanne L. D. Tifft

5902 Mt. Eagle Drive, #910

Alexandria, VA 22303

(703) 960-3873

http://www.jldtifft.com

___________________________________________________________________________

On 4/20/07, Rick Gordon wrote:

As if the conversation stays pertinent now. :-D

RJay

___________________________________________________________________________

Andrew:

Ken:

I agree and want to receive daily emails and respond thru my email client. I misunderstood what "moving to a forum" meant when I made my earlier comment. I archive the list thru my Gmail account, highlight posts of interest and can search topics easily. Having to go to a forum page to make a post is an extra step I wouldn't like. People seem to object to the aethestics of the Yahoo! list, and I don't disagree, but my most important issues I listed above. I can put up with crap ads, etc., if I have to. Dgrins is elegant but not what I want. Aren't there other solutions?

don

--

don schaefer

___________________________________________________________________________

I also dislike having anything to do with Yahoo but share Rick's concerns below.

I currently visit a couple of forums on a daily basis and find it not only time consuming but easy to miss things I would have liked to have read. When I am particularly busy working on deadline I usually have no time to visit a forum and and find that if I miss checking in for a couple of days it takes a long time to sort through everything and catch up. I takes only a few seconds to check my email and if there is no time to read the posts simply save them for later without missing anything (assuming Yahoo delivers all the messages.) It would be best if there was a way for those who wish to participate only via email to do so, without having to log into a site to subscribe to individual threads, yet would also accommodate those who solely prefer the forum approach.

At least almost everyone seems to be in agreement that Yahoo is awful....

Stephen Ramirez

___________________________________________________________________________

Rick,

You can take it further than that. There is an option to subscribe to every thread you wish to subscribe to. It does, however, require you to click on the thread and exercise the option - but you do not need to post to the thread in order to subscribe to it. Perhaps an option could be developed allowing one to receive everything automatically. I guess the main difference between this and an email list is that while you get an automatic stream of emails that you then need to go through and decide whether to retain or discard, with a web forum, you do the latter by entering the forum and perusing the new stuff, which is usually well-identified as such and retaining what you want by either saving the web-page or downloading the material, or keeping a little library of web-links. Not much difference in total work really - just a change in habits - instead of stuff coming to you, there'd be a combination of stuff coming to you and you going to the stuff. It becomes

second-nature and the difference of time and effort I think is really rather trivial, being a frequent user of both systems.

I share your sentiment that one learns by finding things one wasn't looking for. A web forum is an excellent resouce for doing this, because all the topics are clearly identified so one can click into anything that tickles one's fancy very easily.

Everything we do involves trade-offs - there are choices and pros and cons to each option. I think on balance the web forum format offers much that a Yahoo list doesn't, but it could be a bit less convenient to those who just want a string of emails they can download and deal with. From all I'm