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A Proposal to Move the List

Proposal to move the list

Posted by: Dan Margulis

Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:56 pm (PST)

Folks,

The management of this list is contemplating moving it away from yahoogroups in favor of being hosted by dgrin.com. We solicit members' opinions as to the desirability of this action, or any suggestions as to what may go wrong if we do it.

The reason for this move is not to change the list's identity--it would continue to be operated by the same group of moderators with most of the same rules, and we can move it elsewhere if this doesn't work out--but to improve the interface and to make the list more convenient to use. Increasing the volume of messages or the number of membersare not motivating factors.

Particularly, we expect the following improvements:

*All messages will be arranged into threads and archived immediately and indefinitely in thread form. To see how this operates, I'd suggest visiting dgrin.com and checking out some of the forums, notably the one entitled "The Finishing School" which deals mostly with Photoshop manipulation. (We would not be merging with this forum but rather operating separately under a different set of rules.)

*As can be seen, each member has a signature block. In light of this list's strong tradition against anonymous posting, we will require that the block contain (in small print) the member's full name. This will eliminate the practice of rejecting posts for lack of a signature.

*We are given to understand that in addition to the current general options that members have for receiving messages (receive all messages, a digest of all messages at specified intervals, or no messages--must go to the site) we will also be able to override them on a thread-by-thread basis. That is, a person who otherwise would not be receiving every message may find a certain thread particularly interesting and subscribe to it so that all messages will be sent to him when posted. A person who otherwise receives all messages may decide that a particular thread is not worthwhile and unsubscribe from it. Furthermore, you have the option of designating that you will ignore messages from certain members.

*The list messages support embedded images. High-resolution images are not recommended; also, embedded images can only be sRGB. However, dgrin will provide essentially unlimited space for list members to post images separately in any format.

We have wanted to make these types of changes in list format for some time and have explored the possibility of acquiring suitable software and having ledet.com host the list rather than yahoogroups. All our moderators, however, have busy professional lives and it is time to concede that we would never find time to implement this ourselves. Dgrin approached us; we have great respect for them and they for us. For example, dgrin has run extremely active chapter-by-chapter threads about both Canyon Conundrum and PP5E. Search my name on the dgrin forums and you may reach the conclusion (as I have, with some regret) that there is somewhat more discussion of the topics that this group nominally studies on dgrin than here.

Some things about the prospective move are unknown. For example, we believe, but we are not sure, that we can simply duplicate the membership list with all its preferences and thus avoid requiring everybody to sign up again. Nevertheless, there is likely to be some aggravation at the startup.

We also will be continuing the yahoogroups list at least until it becomes clear that the dgrin list is functioning the way we envisioned, presumably with threads duplicated on both lists for an interim period. Thereafter, we don't know what we'll do with yahoogroups--possibly continue it for special announcements or as a forum specifically for ACT attendees.

What is *not* going to happen is a flood of off-topic posts by new members. The membership has made its preference known for more aggressive moderation. The fact that the new list would be threaded would assist us in keeping marginally off-topic threads going longer than we can now. For example, the recent thread about the qualifications needed for hiring Photoshop technicians was marginally on-topic but we did close it while ideas were being exchanged, on the grounds we could not justify exposing every member to it. If we had been on dgrin we would probably have left the thread open, knowing that people who were not interested could unsubscribe from the thread.

OTOH, while we will continue our policy of allowing established list members to launch brief threads on almost any topic, we will adhere to the practice of ending threads that are becoming extended discussions of matters that are clearly not in our charter, such as topics that are of interest only to photographers, that belong on the ColorSync list, that are limited to specific software and/or hardware outside of Photoshop, or that use the list as a general Photoshop help desk.

As at present, membership in the list would be open to all, but only members would be allowed to access the area. As at present, moderator approval would be required for a post to appear. Depending upon how the situation develops, we might switch to a system where our most active members are whitelisted so that their posts can appear immediately without moderator approval. We do not contemplate allowing strangers to post without moderation.

As indicated last week, I will update the list archives at http://www.ledet.com/margulis/ACT_postings/ACT.htm during my trip to Atlanta in early June. This is expected to include the best threads up to around 3/07. I will also add some Makeready columns, if available, to http: //www.ledet.com/margulis/articles.html . Both areas are open to non-members and Sterling has indicated that he intends to keep them available indefinitely; however, future list archives will be hosted by dgrin if we make the move.

I am on the road almost continuously until mid-June. That's likely when we would make the move, which gives us ample time to discuss it.

Thanks in advance to list members for any advice that may be offered, and special thanks to Stephen, Darren, and John for their efforts in keeping the list running smoothly.

Dan Margulis

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Gene Palmiter"

Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:37 pm (PST)

My only concern is that people are less likely to find it by accident. Someone might come to Yahoo to see if there were any groups about Photoshop and discover this group. (If that argument sounds too liberal....that person may not have your books yet!)

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "zthreen lists"

Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:37 pm (PST)

Awesome idea. I hate all this HTML crap that Yahoo has started adding. Plus having to log in to Yahoo before i can get into the group. And being at Yahoo's mercy doesn't help matters any.

As long as a message goes out on this group when the new one is available, everyone should be able to join over there (and if they're name's already entered, I would think the new software would bounce back a message to that effect).

I say Sayonara, Yahoo! All the free stuff is great for amateur and social interaction, but it's quickly becoming detrimental to any professional users. And one day they'll probably pull the plug when they can't "monetize" the ColorTheory list.

My buffalo nickel,

Matthew Rigdon

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Mike Russell"

Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:40 pm (PST)

Though I have some trepedation about any change to a resource as useful as this list has been, the proposed changes appear to be for the better. I'm particularly looking forward to posts that include images.

Mike Russell

www.curvemeister.com/forum/

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "MARK SEGAL"

Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:04 pm (PST)

Congratulations and Excellent. Can't happen soon enough!

Mark Segal

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Glenn Bloodworth"

Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:07 pm (PST)

I support this change fully - I'm confident it will enhance our ability to find topics of interest and follow the threads in a more efficient fashion than possible at present,

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Maris V. Lidaka Sr."

Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:07 pm (PST)

I am all for it. What could possibly go 'wronger' than Yahoo?

Maris V. Lidaka Sr.

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Ruth Harvey"

Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:06 pm (PST)

Just to be clear:

We would be moving from a mailing list (where I can respond by email rather than going to the site), to a forum.

While I prefer this format for my own selfish reasons, I can see the possibilities. I would prefer not, but will certainly go along if this is the decision.

Regards,

Ruth Harvey

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Murray DeJager"

Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:08 pm (PST)

Where ever you go I will follow!

Murray DeJager

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Isaac Mann"

Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:10 pm (PST)

I have used dgrin for a while and therefore I fully support this move. I know that dgrin works well and so I am confident that this will be for the better.

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Duffy Pratt"

Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:12 pm (PST)

I've had good experience with dgrin, and support this idea. The only objection I've seen so far is that people can find the list now by scanning the Yahoo groups. Wouldn't the change make it more likely that actual posts would start appearing as results from internet search engines, like google?

Duffy Pratt

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "James Washer"

Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:52 pm (PST)

I do hope that one could continue to subscribe to an email copy of the forum. While forums can provide a nice user interface, I enjoy being able to read mailinglist emails while disconnected from the net. For example, while travelling by train/airplane which is when I have the most "free time" to read.

- jim washer

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Andrew S. Webb"

Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:52 pm (PST)

I, too, dislike forums. I archive this list myself, and annotate posts I find useful. I would not be able to do that efficiently if it were in forum form.

Is anybody interested in setting it up as a standard hosted mailing list a la the Lyris Photoshop List?

I'd be willing to pay a certain amount of money to fund such a thing, though I have no idea what it might cost. I'll look into it.

Cheers,

_andrew webb

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Don Schaefer"

Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:58 pm (PST)

Sounds good, Dan. Can the archives be searched as in Yahoo!?

don

don schaefer

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "john castronovo"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:21 am (PST)

That's my concern as well Ruth. Right now, all of my group correspondence is done through email. That makes it very convenient to sort and archive those messages I want to keep or reply to on my own system. The extra step of having to log in to a forum just isn't likely to happen on a timely basis. So if individual emails are possible, I'd be all for it. Otherwise, I'm against.

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "John A. Stovall"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:22 am (PST)

By all means let us move...

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Maris V. Lidaka Sr."

Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:22 am (PST)

I had not considered this when I 'voted' yes. I agree with James Washer, and much prefer email mailing lists to web forums. If dgrin.com is web forum only, I would have to reluctantly disagree with moving the group there.

Maris V. Lidaka Sr.

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Rick Gordon"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:22 am (PST)

While I have a strong dislike for Yahoo policies and would prefer to dissociate from them, I very much prefer the ability to receive new list entries without having to be proactive in any way to make that happen. So I would disapprove of a new format that did not have that capability.

Have you checked out the groups at lassosoft.com? The primary InDesign group operates through lassosoft, and that works fine with me.

I would prefer a protocol that includes email delivery of messages and the ability to reespond by email, even if that were to preclude the ability to attach graphics or use HTML formatting in posts.

Rick Gordon

___________________________________________________

RICK GORDON

EMERALD VALLEY GRAPHICS AND CONSULTING

___________________________________________________

WWW: http://www.shelterpub.com

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Nick Dunmur"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:23 am (PST)

I am in favour of this action. Good luck with it and thanks for providing such a resource in the first place.

Kind regards

Nick D

Nick Dunmur - photographer

Nottingham,UK

+441159509685

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "chris broadhurst"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:24 am (PST)

Hello, I am an amateur learner listener on this list.

Some of the subjects are a bit too professional for me, but I enjoy reading them. It took me a long time to 'find' you.

I rather fear that if you move to dgrin that you will have lots of inexperienced people trying to ask a lot of questions that are so obvious to most of you, that the tone of the list will disappear (or you will have an awful lot of moderating to do) - and then the current people will leave.

How often do you search archives and read threads? - the idea of passing on knowledge is very powerful, but IMHO archives are rarely used.

Persumably you know the mixture of the 3000+ members of the list, in terms of writers, readers and questioners - how will things change?

Good luck with you decision.

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Garnetta"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:34 am (PST)

I disagree with moving the group as well.

Garnetta

At 02:48 AM 4/20/2007, you wrote:

I had not considered this when I 'voted' yes. I agree with James Washer,

and much prefer email mailing lists to web forums. If dgrin.com is web

forum only, I would have to reluctantly disagree with moving the group

there.

Maris V. Lidaka Sr.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Garnetta Sullivan

Sullivan Creative

http://SullivanCreative.net

660-827-7003

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Adriano Esteves"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:02 am (PST)

This is a big YES.

adriano

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Steven Hirsch"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:06 am (PST)

I also disagree with moving to dgrin. I have so many places I must log into

every day. I like the email model.

Steve

Steve Hirsch

IT Director

Urban Studio

212-691-2521

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Mark Segal"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:08 am (PST)

I find the reasons offered for retaining the email format thoroughly unconvincing. These kind of discussion Lists served a purpose in the previous century when discussion board formats were less well developed than they are today. Formats such as dgrin, Luminous-Landscape Forum, etc.) are infinitely superior to email lists in terms of their ability to facilitate the organization, categorization and research of information - which forms an important part of the usefulness of discussion lists or forums. The current board formats are also much more user-friendly for carrying a discussion, selectively quoting previous contributors and they avoid all the extraneous rubbish from Yahoo that we now need to put-up with.

The argument that email lists are more convenient for people on airplanes doesn't stand-up to serious scrutiny. You still need an internet connection to download the email, and if you want on off-line record of a discussion board string, all you need to do is copy-paste the board material into an MSWord document, then re-open and read once you board the aircraft. Or create an off-line download of the web-page and open it in your browser while not connected to the web. Whether on a forum board or an email list, you still need that internet connection to respond to anything.

The argument that more people will be attracted to a Yahoo-type list than to a web forum also doesn't stand up to serious scrutiny. The major determinant of website usage is whether people find them useful and user-friendly. Initial exposure to a website happens in many ways for which the format of the site itself is irrelevant. And since the overwhelming majority of web discussions are carried on forum formats these days, this will be more welcomed by more people. The Yahoo-type List is increasingly seen as a relic of the past and as time goes on fewer and fewer people will be comfortable using it.

Mark Segal

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "alpom111"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:12 am (PST)

I agree wholeheartly

Al Pomina

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Joe O'Connor"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:14 am (PST)

As I am a new subscriber, I will just say it was hard to find this list. If we setup forums we should allow for guests like myself to lurk and learn.

Joe

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Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Chris Brown"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:14 am (PST)

Dan,

I'm sure you and others have thought long and hard about this, and what's best for the advancement of color theory and color correction. Here's my two bits:

Benefits of YahooGroups: All messages are emailed and can be responded to via email. This makes it the easiest format for full membership discussion.

Detriment of YahooGroups: Lousy search implementation. Lousy access and interface for online use (i.e., user using web site to read and post). Buggy implementation of HTML messaging. Relatively limited disk space for group's photos and files. Lousy implementation for viewing images.

Benefits of PHP forum format: Intuitive site structure promotes easy mining of knowledge base. Easy to post images and graphics. Excellent search implementation. Ability to embed HTML in posts to help with communication to others.

Detriments of PHP forum format: User must access posts and discussions via web browser. Greater possibility for divergent discussions. Greater possibility for the occasional aberrant user to post nonsense or strident comments.

Personally, I enjoy reading my YahooGroups batch emails with my morning coffee. No browsing, just an easy read of an email. (However, given all the tech savvy of Yahoo I'm surprised they haven't developed a more mature, robust interface that combines the benefits of both an email server and PHP forum.)

If you do move the forum, I think initially there will be a few "speed bumps", but after everyone gets used to the structure then good discussion and image examples will become abundant.

Cheers ~

Chris Brown

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Lee Clawson"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:15 am (PST)

John, Dan and others,

Two things I'd rather not have:

(1)-- I too prefer getting the messages in daily e-mail. If the new site will support this fine. Otherwise I'd prefer another choice.

(2)-- The part in Dan's message that reads "A person who otherwise receives all messages may decide that a particular thread is not worthwhile and unsubscribe from it. Furthermore, you have the option of designating that you will ignore messages from certain members."

The delete or the arrow key seems more than sufficient for dealing with this. That we could become so short-sighted that we know in advance what's worthwhile or more importantly who's writing will never ever add to our knowledge is a sad comment on our willingness to tolerate the sheer variety of knowledge and experiences that the present group offers. To offer any option for a seemingly democratic self-censorship is one I dislike stongly.

In its mildest form we end up being mired in posts that lack of awareness of current discussions. In its worst we let ourselves be deluded into thinking that what we understand now doesn't change.

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Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "John Ruttenberg"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:16 am (PST)

I was as much behind moving ACT to dgrin as anyone. Let me explain what was behind my thinking.

I've taken Dan's class 3 times and each time I've gotten a lot out of it. I've read both of his books more than once and was a beta-reader of PP5E. What I loved about both the classes and the book was the interaction of theory and of case studies which show (and in some case challenge) the application of that theory.

When I became a moderator of ACT, it was with the goal of trying to refresh this list and bring more case studies to it. I have tried to do this a few times, but found that the format was a big impediment. In each case, I was pretty much flodded with private email containing creditable attempts and thoughts. Making these available to the whole group for side by side comparisons was just too much work.

In contrast, I participated in numerous such case studies on dgrin and I think they have been very successful and have captured a lot of the spirit of one of Dan's classes.

Consider the reading groups for each of Dan's books:

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=18203

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=48066

Or consider these particular threads:

http://dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=58886

http://dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=2044

http://dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=58191

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=52033

The thread centric format combined with inline images makes this sort of discussion particularly convenient and thus encourages it. The current format, on the other hand, tends to favor theoretical discussions disassociated from application to particular images. This list as suffered greatly from this tendency. I don't need to be specific about it, anyone who has subscribed here for a while will remember endless debates and discussions without (much) reference to practice. When one of thes hoary old issues arose on dgrin, it was dispatched after a relatively little discussion and with a fairly large increase in understanding on all sides (including mine):

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=27460

As to the problems people envision with the new format, let me make a couple of suggestions.

1. Sign up to dgrin and take it for a spin. Don't let theory without practice or fear of the unknown make up your mind for you. In theory I prefer email lists as well, but in practice, I have learned that boards such as dgrin work better for discussion of all topics related to photography, including post processing.

2. Let's evaluate specific issues (such as using email to post without a browser) practically. How often do you actually have email access without a browser? How often do you use it?

3. If some specific issues really pass the test of being practical problems, let's look for solutions within the context of this proposal. The dgrin people have been very flexible and willing to accomadate our needs.

-- John Ruttenberg

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Terry Wyse"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:16 am (PST)

I vote "yes" on the move.

I also don't care to have to use a browser/forum to view messages but the idea of being able to subscribe to particular threads that are of interest to me and get notifications is worth the inconvenience to me.

Regards,

Terry Wyse

_____________________________

WyseConsul

Color Management Consulting

G7 Certified Expert

704.843.0858

http://www.wyseconsul.com

http://www.colormanagementgroup.com

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "john castronovo"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:18 am (PST)

Maybe we should have a look at Google Groups as well. Like many others, I dislike Yahoo, but email messages are very convenient for most of us I think. Google provides both a suitable archive and messaging.

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "MARK SEGAL"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:24 am (PST)

For those of you unfamiliar with how modern web forums inter-face with email, many of them give you the option to be notified of new posts, and the posts come into your email box in full. You can also manage which threads come and don't come to you by email. Very flexible and convenient. And when you respond, to comply with rules of Dan's List, you will no longer need the cumbersome process of carefully editing-out of a text box much of the stuff you are responding to, including the Yahoo rubbish.

For those of you unfamiliar with managing log-ins: all you need to do is either not log-out before you leave the site, or log-out and let your browser retain your password, so as soon as you begin to type your user-name, your password gets filled, you click Enter, and bingo - you're in!

Sorry if this sounds like "Using Web Forums 101", but it really is a totally viable, easy, convenient and superior format to email, while allowing one to configure it to retain the convenience of email for those who want this.

Mark Segal

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Les De Moss"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:55 am (PST)

Email notice of posts provides spontaneous interactivity between members, akin to brainstorming, that may be lost in a forum format. Whether or not that outweighs the organizational benefits of a forum is hard to for me to predict.

Les De Moss

DigiGraphics LLC

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "James Washer"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:55 am (PST)

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 08:43:57 -0400

"Mark Segal" wrote:

So, I get up early in the morning, boot the laptop, start email, jump in the shower, get dressed shut off the laptop and jump in a cab....

I boot the laptop, and connect, one at a time, to the 20 or so various forums that have replaced the 20 or so yahoo groups I currently belong to. On each forum, I cut and paste any number of threads into word documents. Oh, and let's not forget to clean up the word docs from yesterday..

Yeah, that's just as easing as the email approach.

jim washer

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "RJay Hansen"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:56 am (PST)

Like others, I prefer an email list to a forum as one receives emails passively while you must make the effort to pull up a forum, log in and find your specific group or topic(s). However I note that in Dan's message proposing this idea he said:

We are given to understand that in addition to the current general

options that members have for receiving messages (receive all

messages, a digest of all messages at specified intervals, or no

messages--must go to the site) we will also be able to override them

on a thread-by-thread basis. That is, a person who otherwise would not

be receiving every message may find a certain thread particularly

interesting and subscribe to it so that all messages will be sent to

him when posted. A person who otherwise receives all messages may

decide that a particular thread is not worthwhile and unsubscribe from

it. Furthermore, you have the option of designating that you will

ignore messages from certain members.

This sounds like the forum posts would be pushed out to people's email (perhaps optionally?). That being said, even if there isn't an email option I would follow the group if it went this direction.

I would like to say to Mark that while he prefers forums and lists many obvious benefits that doesn't mean they are the "proper" way to run a group on the internet. There are also benefits to a group conducted via email some of which have been noted by other posters. This is a personal preference issue. Listing advantages you see in a forum setting is one thing, but insisting those who prefer an email-based list don't have compelling reasons for that preference won't advance the discussion.

RJay

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "JJ Jones"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:57 am (PST)

Hi All

My vote to the move is aye.

Would also like to take this opportunity to thank all the list members for sharing their knowledge and expertise. I have learned so much from this group.

Thank you.

JJ Jones

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "zthreen lists"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:57 am (PST)

The dgrin.com (not drgin.com as I found out) supports RSS. What this means is you can use a program called a news reader (like NetNewsWire or NewsFire [my current choice] on Mac, there are available newsreaders for Windows) in order to subscribe. At intervals you specify, the news reader will check for new posts to the forum by checking the RSS feed. The RSS feed tells you the thread name and the time it was posted. Then you can click on that in your news reader and it will take you to the particular page in the forum. Every page has an RSS link, so you can use your newsreader to keep up with an entire forum as well as any of the subforums, all the way down to individual threads. So, in this way, you can always monitor the RSS feed of the entire Colortheory forum, then just subscribe to the RSS feeds of each individual thread that you're interested in. When a new post appears, your news reader will alert you. Any threads that you aren't interested in will show up in the main forum RSS, but you can safely ignore.

If you are cut off from internet access, you won't be able to download a bunch of emails and read them, but if you're carrying a laptop around that's been built in the last three years, it will have wireless capability and internet access (often free) is often available, especially in airports and hopefully (soon for those of you who are desperate to work on a plane) on airplanes in the US. Anyone who does travel often should sign up for <http://anchorfree.com/>, a website that helps you locate free Wi-fi hotspots around the world.

HTH,

Matthew Rigdon

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Pylant, Brian"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:59 am (PST)

I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other about the list vs. forum debate, although I suppose I lean towards a forum, as you can post images, etc. in a much easier fashion than we can currently with YahooGroups. And many lists are email-only, with no server space for posting files.

However, I have to say that I dislike vBulliten so much (I really don't understand why anyone chooses it over phpBB), so dgrin.com looks less appealing to me simply because they use it. If I'm forced to I will, but I won't like it at all.

This is not a very active list (we go through spurts, but on the whole the traffic is very light compared to many other lists I'm on, where hundreds of emails are sent daily). Many people who already pay for web hosting get some sort of discussion list feature included (I know I do, with DreamHost) so perhaps someone who has the bandwidth free could just move the list to their server?

In the end, I trust the combined intelligence of the list to make a very good choice, no matter what it may be. I am of the opinion that just about *anything* is preferrable to YahooGroups.

BRIAN PYLANT

Manager, Electronic Prepress

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::

Disc Makers

7905 North Route 130, Pennsauken, NJ 08110

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Maris V. Lidaka Sr."

Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:51 am (PST)

Mark Segal wrote:

I find the reasons offered for retaining the email format thoroughly

unconvincing. These kind of discussion Lists served a purpose in the

previous century when discussion board formats were less well

developed than they are today. Formats such as dgrin,

Luminous-Landscape Forum, etc.) are infinitely superior to email

lists in terms of their ability to facilitate the organization,

categorization and research of information - which forms an important

part of the usefulness of discussion lists or forums. The current

board formats are also much more user-friendly for carrying a

discussion, selectively quoting previous contributors and they avoid

all the extraneous rubbish from Yahoo that we now need to put-up

with.

Superior in "organization, categorization and research" - fine, but still as convenient as receiving email? "selectively quoting" and "avoid[ing] all the extraneous rubbish" is a simple select & cut procedure.

The argument that email lists are more convenient for people on

airplanes doesn't stand-up to serious scrutiny. You still need an

internet connection to download the email, and if you want on

off-line record of a discussion board string, all you need to do is

copy-paste the board material into an MSWord document, then re-open

and read once you board the aircraft. Or create an off-line download

of the web-page and open it in your browser while not connected to

the web. Whether on a forum board or an email list, you still need

that internet connection to respond to anything.

Email lists are morre convenient to access - period. Has little to do with airplanes. I check my email anyway - one click and I'm there. No accessing a website; no log-on.

Maris V. Lidaka Sr.

___________________________________________________________________________

Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "MARK SEGAL"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:54 am (PST)

Jay,

I never used the word "proper" - I said more up-to-date, and I arguedthat the benefits of the forum approach outweigh the factors for retention of an email approach. If I happen to think that some of the reasons offered for retaining the email approach have little substance or little general applicability it does advance the discussion to say so and say why. Otherwise we just talk past eachother.

While I agree it is partly a matter of personal preference, I also think John Ruttenberg has suggested a number of objective factors that make a rather convincing case for the format change. Personal preferences also change over time - we get accustomed to all kinds of new things that bring certain benefits the older things didn't have. Yes, we may sacrifice a few features of the previous incarnation in the process, but judgments need to be made on the balanace of the pros and cons. I know not everyone is with me on this, and so be it, but I'm quite prepared to adapt my preferences if I think the balance of pros and cons objectively points to the merits of a change in habits.

Mark Segal

___________________________________________________________________________

Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Graham Bird"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:54 am (PST)

On Apr 19, 2007, at 10:13 PM, James Washer wrote:

I do hope that one could continue to subscribe to an email copy of

the forum. While forums can provide a nice user interface, I enjoy

being able to read mailinglist emails while disconnected from the

net. For example, while travelling by train/airplane which is when

I have the most "free time" to read.

I'll second (or third!) that. Email or RSS feeds are my core mechanism for tracking all fora.

Graham Bird

___________________________________________________________________________

Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Lee Clawson"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:55 am (PST)

Mark,

All of what you write sounds wonderful. More so if it was benefits I thought about and desired. Other than not liking Yahoo and wanting another choice for host I prefer the non-web daily e-mail.

Lee Clawson

2/\V/\7 Studio

___________________________________________________________________________ .

Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Maris V. Lidaka Sr."

Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:55 am (PST)

MARK SEGAL wrote:

For those of you unfamiliar with how modern web forums inter-face

with email, many of them give you the option to be notified of new

posts, and the posts come into your email box in full.

Sounds like an extra step - I'm notified of the post, but I have to access the forum to receive the post? Or is the post email-forwarded automatically unless I decline posts in the thread?

You can also

manage which threads come and don't come to you by email. Very

flexible and convenient. And when you respond, to comply with rules

of Dan's List, you will no longer need the cumbersome process of

carefully editing-out of a text box much of the stuff you are

responding to, including the Yahoo rubbish.

Again, balderdash - not a problem to select and cut extraneous matter (has to be done in either event), nor to select and cut the Yahoo rubbish.

For those of you unfamiliar with managing log-ins: all you need to

do is either not log-out before you leave the site, or log-out and

let your browser retain your password, so as soon as you begin to

type your user-name, your password gets filled, you click Enter, and

bingo - you're in!

That is one problem with Yahoo - it claims to retain my infor for 2 weeks, but doesn't even keep it 1 minute.

while

allowing one to configure it to retain the convenience of email for

those who want this.

So long as this is true I'm for the move. I'll follow up on John Ruttenberg's suggestions later today when I have time.

Maris V. Lidaka Sr.

___________________________________________________________________________ .

Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Howard Smith"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:55 am (PST)

Dan,

While I'm always open to new ideas and new opinions, my own feelings after visiting the dgrin.com site is that it lacks the hard-edged professionalism of the current forum. Also, it's hard enough now to find the time to go through all the posts when they are arranged as serial e-mails. If we have to wade through all the friendly posts, cheerful comments, and contributors' portraits in order to pick up the significant messages, it might prove burdensome for those of us with limited time. Whether or not it's an advantage to be able to see images along with the messages is a big question mark. We have access to any posted images now without havng to scroll through all of them in order to get to the text posts.

My primary concern is because I've seen more than one new-and-improved venture lose its customer base once it loses its original flavor. Maybe I've missed something objectionable about the way Yahoo runs its site, but it hasn't been noticeable. I log on for the posts, save those of interest, then log off and get on with my work. As long as the information is available it doesn't bother me if the folks at Yahoo are making faces at me from behind a curtain.

Maybe the real problem is that those of us who are wary of the move are too set in our ways, but I don't see how that is possible in this field. You either adapt daily or you perish. Just as a safety net, perhaps you can leave the door ajar in case we need to come back home.

I'll follow you, of course, hoping all the way that this works out as well as the majority feels it will.

Howard Smith

___________________________________________________________________________

Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Ina Bechhoefer"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:06 am (PST)

I like receiving the daily digests by email; and, as such, read almost all digests and have learned much from Dan and contributors to the list I would probably not be reading the list very often if it were only available as an online Forum. BTW, my settings for Yahoo deliver the digest in threaded format.

Ina Bechhoefer

___________________________________________________________________________

Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "garro_carlos"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:57 am (PST)

Way to go! Mr. Dan...

Un gran abrazo desde Costa Rica...

Carlos Garro

___________________________________________________________________________

Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "MARK SEGAL"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:57 am (PST)

Jim,

I also mentioned that you can download the web page directly and read it as an off-line HTML document. Yes I agree, if you subscribe to many email forums and need to download all of them frequently it is definitely more effort. I'd like to know how many people would be seriously inconvenienced by the need to achieve all their downloads just before running to an airport. Are we talking about a 2% of the readership 2% of the time or 40% of the readership 40% of the time? Or more or less? There are real issues and straw issues. It all depends! I believe John posted a number of huge benefits to the dgrin format against which to put this factor in perspective.

Mark Segal

___________________________________________________________________________

Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "colorman042000"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:09 am (PST)

Dear Dan and you frequent contributors that I have enjoyed reading so much on a daily basis,

If I don't get my emails automatically like I do now, then I fear (?) that the ColorTheory Group will eventually disappear from my life. I've got so much to do besides reminding myself to check a forum every day.

"Loin des yeux loin du coeur" which means something like: "far from your eyes far from your heart".

André Dumas

___________________________________________________________________________

Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Michael and Nettie Cox" \

Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:11 am (PST)

Yes, I vote for Dgrin

___________________________________________________________________________

Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Mark Segal"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:00 am (PST)

Maris,

I subscribe to Luminous-Landscape, for example. It is a web forum. The new messages that come to my EMAIL INBOX come there IN FULL - that is, you see the whole text in your email; there is also a link right underneath the post that I can click and it takes me from my email directly into the web forum, so I can respond immediately on the forum. I don't need to worry about deleting or shortening the message I'm responding to (Dan's rules), or deleting Yahoo advertising, because one message just follows another. It also provides a "quote/reply" button so I can easily select the material I wish to respond to, and the quote and response are clearly differentiated from each other within the reply post. You don't have ANY extraneous matter that needs to be cut when responding to posts in a web forum. And I find selecting and cutting the Yahoo rubbish a nuisance I would prefer to be liberated from.

Mark Segal

___________________________________________________________________________

Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Preston Earle"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:01 am (PST)

Enough already. Can't these replies be sent directly to the appropriate decision-maker? I don't really need to know everyone's opinion.

Preston Earle

www.SawdustForBrains.blogspot.com

___________________________________________________________________________

Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Pylant, Brian"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:01 am (PST)

I've missed something objectionable about the way Yahoo runs its site, but it hasn't been noticeable.

It's *very* noticable to me... I've suggested moving from YahooGroups for years (be it to another list or a forum, either way), the primary reason being to maybe -- just maybe -- receive every message. I constantly see replies to messages I never received; my guesstimate is that I probably receive about 80% of the list messages at most. And this is true for every YahooGroup I subscribe to, and regardless of where I check my email (i.e. it's not a Firewall or spamfilter issue.)

Some say "well, just log on to the group and check it there" to which my response is, if we're going to do that then we might as well move to another forum, because there are many (again, the aforementioned phpBB comes first to mind) that do it a LOT better than YahooGroups.

BRIAN PYLANT

Manager, Electronic Prepress

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::

Disc Makers

7905 North Route 130, Pennsauken, NJ 08110

Toll free: 1-800-468-9353 ext. 5539

___________________________________________________________________________

Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Mark Segal"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:02 am (PST)

Howard,

"Hard-edge professionalism" depends on what people say in the material, not the GUI. I find it easier to use Luminous-Landscape, for example, than to use this format. I can breeze through the new stuff of any interest to me there in no time, and be selective about what I wish to read, retain or ignore. And it is so easy to reference back to previous discussions in the same or parallel or previous threads. I really believe that after a few days of using the new format, very, very few people will want to revert to Yahoo.

Mark Segal

___________________________________________________________________________

Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Gary Politzer"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:03 am (PST)

Go ahead & switch. I hate Yahoo Groups. Last year, I made the mistake of joining another Yahoo group under another email address. This created total confusion with browser cookies, and I don't know if I can even post to this group any more. This is a test. My only concern is that dgrin.com looked a little low brow, and this group has been very professional, which I enjoy.

___________________________________________________________________________

Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Michael White"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:08 am (PST)

There is nothing as simple and familiar to everyone as Yahoo Groups. I've had groups move before and, though I know it's my shortcoming, my interest has fizzled out. I would think more harm than good would come from moving. But that's just me...a not-so-active member!

Michael Ray White

Michael Ray White Photography

"The perfect blend of photojournalistic reportage & artistic interpretation"

www.michaelraywhite.com

770-745-4117 Atlanta

504-432-5216 New Orleans

800-837-8272 National

___________________________________________________________________________

Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Rick Gordon"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:43 pm (PST)

Looking at the FAQs of Luminous-Landscape, I only see where you can get email delivery of the threads that you have posted to. If so, that is a very different matter than getting EVERY email. I learn a great deal by finding things I wasn't looking for. And having a day's worth of mail where I can scan every message -- not going in and out of threads -- is what works for me.

Rick Gordon

___________________________________________________

RICK GORDON

EMERALD VALLEY GRAPHICS AND CONSULTING

___________________________________________________

WWW: http://www.shelterpub.com

___________________________________________________________________________

Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Henry"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:44 pm (PST)

I vote for the status quo.

Henry Davis

___________________________________________________________________________

Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Rick Gordon"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:45 pm (PST)

But that does not appear to be the protocol of dgrin, as I check it out as a glance. They're RSS feeds. If it can be configured so that each message can be received separately and as a digest (though I hate digests, some want them) as emails, then I'm OK with it. Otherwise, I'm fiercely opposed.

If dgrin won't work that way, and you want to go this route, then follow Luminous Landscape's model with a provider who will do that.

I'm definitely concerned that if it moves to a format where email delivery is not possible, you will see both a loss of key correspondents and, I fear, a plethora of new members whose skills are not up to keeping the conversation pertinent.

Rick Gordon

------------------

On 4/20/07 at 12:08 PM -0400, Mark Segal wrote in a message entitled

"Re: [colortheory] Proposal to move the list":

___________________________________________________

RICK GORDON

EMERALD VALLEY GRAPHICS AND CONSULTING

___________________________________________________

WWW: http://www.shelterpub.com

___________________________________________________________________________

Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Andrew S. Webb"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:45 pm (PST)

On Apr 20, 2007, at 7:49 AM, MARK SEGAL arranged some pixels so they looked like this:

You can also manage which threads come and don't come to you by

email. Very flexible and convenient.

Horse hockey. You have to explicitly subscribe to EVERY topic if you want to get everything delivered. That means you have to go to the site and make sure you haven't missed something. I take several vfx classes online and the forum system there is very similar to the one at DGRIN. It's a huge PITA and I hate it. I like having the whole list flow in. I read it very quickly, filter out the stupid arguments with a firm finger on the Delete key, and archive the interesting bits. I don't have to go through any rigamarole finding threads and copying bits into a separate application. Most email clients are thread-aware these days, including Mac Mail, which I use.

On Apr 20, 2007, at 6:43 AM, Mark Segal arranged some pixels so they looked like this:

I find the reasons offered for retaining the email format

thoroughly unconvincing.

Funny, I didn't realize that you were the one we had to convince. Your tone is thoroughly offensive. We're not a bunch of drooling idiots.

The argument that email lists are more convenient for people on

airplanes doesn't stand-up to serious scrutiny.

Sure they do. I grab all my mail before I get on the plane and I read it in-flight. Again, no rigamarole.

----------

Clicking on threads and subscribing to bits and saving off-line weird-format archivally-suspect web archives is a lot more work than clicking "Get Mail".

The idea that we should abandon a flawed-but-viable, useful format because it is "increasingly seen as a relic of the past" (what are you Segal, the Voice of the People?) is ridiculous. We want a _trendier_ format?!

I've been on the Net since there was a Net to be on, and I have never liked the forum format. I do understand that this proposed move is not my decision, and I urge people to go and read some DGRIN stuff. Pretend you care about the content and imagine yourselff checking the site every day, trying to find new posts, trying to save interesting bits. I think you'll find that it's far more hassle than it's worth.

If we're all upset that we can't easily post pictures, I'll be happy to buy a domain and some webspace (it's $6USD per month for 5Gigs of storage and 250GB of transfer!) and I'll release the FTP info onto the list. With an upload cap to prevent wackos from abusing it, it should work fine.

Man, I sure am grouchy this morning.

Cheers,

_andrew webb

___________________________________________________________________________

Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "John Ruttenberg"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:02 pm (PST)

Preston Earle:

Enough already. Can't these replies be sent directly to the appropriate

decision-maker? I don't really need to know everyone's opinion.

Well, if we were on dgrin right now, you could just unsubscribe to the thread. It's a great example of one big advantage.

-- John Ruttenberg

___________________________________________________________________________

Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Ken Dawes"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:06 pm (PST)

My preference for receiving this group is via e-mail. I like that "in my inbox and with my cup of coffee in the morning" thing. I receive it as the text-only digest and with no HTML "Yahoo crap" other than the link at the top to each message. Yes, the e-mail may become unnecessarily long due to folks not deleting all but the relevant portion of the e-mail that they are replying to, but I find it no problem to scroll past what I'm not interested in.

That being said, while I haven't yet perused dgrin, if they have an RSS feed that could be pretty good to me. RSS can be pretty convenient. (I use the WIZZ RSS plugin in my Firefox browser)

Ken Dawes

Ken Dawes Photography

Specializing in images of Wineries, Vineyards and the California coast.

Mountain Vines Publishing, LLC<3D%22http: //www.mountainvinespub.com%22>

___________________________________________________________________________

Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Jeanne D. Tifft"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:14 pm (PST)

Sounds like a useful move, but, I'm not clear whether dgrin sends posts in digest form to members' email boxes or whether one has to log on to the dgrin site in order to read posts ... can someone clarify? Thanks.

Jeanne L. D. Tifft

5902 Mt. Eagle Drive, #910

Alexandria, VA 22303

(703) 960-3873

http://www.jldtifft.com

___________________________________________________________________________

Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "RJay Hansen"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:25 pm (PST)

On 4/20/07, Rick Gordon wrote:

...I fear,

a plethora of new members whose skills are not up to keeping the

conversation pertinent.

As if the conversation stays pertinent now. :-D

RJay

___________________________________________________________________________

Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Don Schaefer"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:00 pm (PST)

Andrew:

I, too, dislike forums. I archive this list myself, and annotate

posts I find useful. I would not be able to do that efficiently if it

were in forum form.

Ken:

My preference for receiving this group is via e-mail. I like that "in my

inbox and with my cup of coffee in the morning" thing. I receive it as

the text-only digest and with no HTML

I agree and want to receive daily emails and respond thru my email client. I misunderstood what "moving to a forum" meant when I made my earlier comment. I archive the list thru my Gmail account, highlight posts of interest and can search topics easily. Having to go to a forum page to make a post is an extra step I wouldn't like. People seem to object to the aethestics of the Yahoo! list, and I don't disagree, but my most important issues I listed above. I can put up with crap ads, etc., if I have to. Dgrins is elegant but not what I want. Aren't there other solutions?

don

don schaefer

___________________________________________________________________________

Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Stephen Ramirez"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:00 pm (PST)

I also dislike having anything to do with Yahoo but share Rick's concerns below.

I currently visit a couple of forums on a daily basis and find it not only time consuming but easy to miss things I would have liked to have read. When I am particularly busy working on deadline I usually have no time to visit a forum and and find that if I miss checking in for a couple of days it takes a long time to sort through everything and catch up. I takes only a few seconds to check my email and if there is no time to read the posts simply save them for later without missing anything (assuming Yahoo delivers all the messages.) It would be best if there was a way for those who wish to participate only via email to do so, without having to log into a site to subscribe to individual threads, yet would also accommodate those who solely prefer the forum approach.

At least almost everyone seems to be in agreement that Yahoo is awful....

Stephen Ramirez

I'm definitely concerned that if it moves to a format where email

delivery is not possible, you will see both a loss of key

correspondents and, I fear, a plethora of new members whose skills

are not up to keeping the conversation pertinent.

Rick Gordon

___________________________________________________________________________

Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "MARK SEGAL"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:01 pm (PST)

Rick,

You can take it further than that. There is an option to subscribe to every thread you wish to subscribe to. It does, however, require you to click on the thread and exercise the option - but you do not need to post to the thread in order to subscribe to it. Perhaps an option could be developed allowing one to receive everything automatically. I guess the main difference between this and an email list is that while you get an automatic stream of emails that you then need to go through and decide whether to retain or discard, with a web forum, you do the latter by entering the forum and perusing the new stuff, which is usually well-identified as such and retaining what you want by either saving the web-page or downloading the material, or keeping a little library of web-links. Not much difference in total work really - just a change in habits - instead of stuff coming to you, there'd be a combination of stuff coming to you and you going to the stuff. It becomes

second-nature and the difference of time and effort I think is really rather trivial, being a frequent user of both systems.

I share your sentiment that one learns by finding things one wasn't looking for. A web forum is an excellent resouce for doing this, because all the topics are clearly identified so one can click into anything that tickles one's fancy very easily.

Everything we do involves trade-offs - there are choices and pros and cons to each option. I think on balance the web forum format offers much that a Yahoo list doesn't, but it could be a bit less convenient to those who just want a string of emails they can download and deal with. From all I'm reading on this thread, I think this is what the arguments are boiling down to - does one want the richer format, or the string of emails delivered to the front door. I think the richer format can also deliver most of the latter, so it is almost win-win for the richer format.

I also think we should not confuse content with format. A forum using the dgrin interface can be every bit as professional in terms of clientele and contributions as an email list - that depends wholly on the people running it and using it.

Mark Segal

___________________________________________________________________________

Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Alessandro Bernardi"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:03 pm (PST)

Ok here is the point of view of a new member (from Italy) of the list that has worked hardly to join this group.

1. I've read about Dan in some articles on an Italian magazine some years ago and I thought "Yeah, this guy has some nice ideas about color correction, it would be nice to know something more about this argument" but until the Italian magazine was closed on last December it was very difficult to get in touch with Dan's ideas also beacuse I didn't know that he had a list like this (Yahoo or other kind I don't think it's important...)

2. I've find it NOT through Yahoo but through a Wacom page and the Sterling & Ledet website

3. Yes, the mail list model is very easy beacause there are days that I don't open any browser but SURELY I open my e-mail client, but when I read the daily digest I can access only to SOME mails and not to all at the same time regarding a specific thread

4. Yes, the web forums described by Dan seems to work better on all the discussions and have a flexibility that you can't have on mail lists like adding images to the threads, subscribing only the interesting discussions and other things

5. I surely would prefer a group that show me all the mails in the same time and of course on my ultimate-state-of-the-art mobile phone (yes, I change it every week) with a text-to-speech feature, but this doesn't works well yet....

6. We in Italy says that you can't have the barrel full of wine and your wife drunk at the same time...

all this bla bla bla it seems to me too big because, if I understand well, there will be an interim phase in which we can use both the methods and I think that everyone will surely give a feedback to the moderators, both positive or negative.

I think that the move was proposed to make an improvement for the group and not the opposite.

On the other side anyone who like the email list has to change his habits, but I think that if someone can switch from thinking about an image made of 3 or 4 channel to "every image has 10 channel" he will surely find easier to switch to the new group instead of the mail list.

For example in the "Aunt Tillie's oilpaint Story" thread I had to make a lot of work for showing to John Ruttenberg what I did with the image: what else better than sending few images and showing all the steps for the final result?

I think that any change has a price, sometimes big, sometimes little.

But if I compare the price I'll have to pay to the things that this group is giving me... there's nothing more to talk about!

That's all.

Alessandro Bernardi

___________________________________________________________________________

Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Howard Smith"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:57 pm (PST)

Mark,

Thank you for your reply. You may well be right that we will all love the new format once we get used to it. We'll only know when the change is complete.

In the meantime I suspect all this discussion is pretty much a waste of time. The forum is being moved, whatever we think. As a last act of desperation, I would suggest that Dan or one of the moderators summarize the various steps for basic use of the new forum. All of the comments about downloading threads etc. don't really tell me anything about what has to be done to turn the doorknob to get inside, or where to hang my hat and coat once in there. Sure, any of us with enough intelligence to learn from Dan's books and from this forum can figure it all out from the information given in the dgrin site, along with a little trial and error. And no doubt there are many among us who find using all of the various messaging systems and forums second nature. Unfortunately there are at least a few who have no real need to expand our horizons into areas of little immediate interest just because the tools exist. If we have to learn new ways of getting critical information, we will. But I prefer to spend all my available time learning better ways to use Photoshop, not better ways to read e-mails.

As just one simple example, I don't intuitively see how to save a post in dgrin. In Yahoo it's a simple matter to click my Acrobat button and the post is saved. It doesn't look like it's going to work that way with dgrin. Whether or not it does, it's a nuisance to have to take the time to learn how to use new tools just to be able to save selected posts. Perhaps only two or three posts over the past several years were all that indispensable to me, but those posts dramatically changed my way of thinking and opened up vast new fields of exploration for me. Some of these posts came from hotly debated subjects that were becoming a nuisance to read until those two or three unexpectedly turned on some very bright lights and changed everything. No threads, images, or summaries have come close to being that critical. Missing those critical posts would have been akin to misplacing a winning lottery number. That's how important I perceive them to be.

Howard Smith

___________________________________________________________________________

Requiring Membership to Read? (was: Proposal to move the list)

Posted by: "Pylant, Brian"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:02 am (PST)

As at present, membership in the list would be open to all,

but only members would be allowed to access the area.

If this means that people cannot read the forum at all without joining, I could not disagree with this more. I see no problem in allowing anyone to read the messages, without actually joining. This is a great way for people to lurk and see if it's a group that is of interest to them, and populated by people they want to converse with, without the need to register or do anything. I do this all the time before joining groups, to great success and without any interference to the members.

Now of course one would have to register in order to participate, and follow all of the rules that are set out (such as no anonymous posting, etc.)

BRIAN PYLANT

Manager, Electronic Prepress

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::

Disc Makers

7905 North Route 130, Pennsauken, NJ 08110

Toll free: 1-800-468-9353 ext. 5539

___________________________________________________________________________

Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "David Creamer"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:59 pm (PST)

I get about 50 digests (each containing multiple emails) in my inbox every day. Personally, if I couldn't get an emailed digest, I doubt I would remember to access a list at all.

David Creamer

I.D.E.A.S. - Results-Oriented Training

http://www.IDEAStraining.com

___________________________________________________________________________

Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "colorman042000"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:01 pm (PST)

On Friday, April 20, 2007 12:19 PM Andrew S. Webb wrote:

Your tone is thoroughly offensive. We're not a bunch of drooling

idiots. [...] Man, I sure am grouchy this morning.

Long mornings Andrew ...?

Mark Segal has expressed his views in a very measured way, he may be passionate about Dan's proposal but I did not feel that his tone was offensive nor did I feel that he took me for a drooling idiot.

André Dumas

___________________________________________________________________________

Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "colorman042000"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:36 pm (PST)

Amen Howard,

Seems we can't stop "progress". The future will tell if this is a good idea, my instinct tells me it is not. This group depends on the quality of its membership, the forum will move but will the membership follow or will the membership be reduced to those who are willing to move?

André Dumas

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Larry Berman"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:37 pm (PST)

Not nearly as easy as saving the posts on your own computer. I have the last 15,000 posts and can find anything in seconds. I also host a forum on Yahoo that has over 3,800 photographers and though I've been thinking of moving the forum, I won't until I find a web based forum that allows subscribing to receive every post through e-mail (most do) and to be able to reply to the posts through e-mail also.

Larry

As just one simple example, I don't intuitively see how to save a post in

dgrin. In Yahoo it's a simple matter to click my Acrobat button and the

post is saved.

******************************

Larry Berman

Digital Jury Services

http://BermanGraphics.com

******************************

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "MARK SEGAL"

Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:37 pm (PST)

Howard,

To test the concept, I just saved a whole page of posts on Luminous-Landscape in Acrobat - it took about a second or two. Acrobat saves web pages very efficiently. Alternatively, one can save a hyper-link to the web page that contains the post and that takes even less time and effort. Alternatively one can copy-paste a post into a Word doc. Alternatively one can save the page as an off-line HTML doc. All pretty fast and easy. I don't like saving these Yahoo emails as they are - comes with all the Yahoo gunk and the type is small. Some of your contributions, for example, that I really liked I copied and pasted into a Word document, so I could lay it out and format it in a much more readable way.

I just joined another Yahoo group on Epson printers because I wanted to see what those folks are saying. Lots of luck trying to make sense of it - thousands of messages sorted by message number by month. How many months of messages will I need to sift through and open before I know what they have that may interest me? With a web forum format I could peruse the topics in a jiffy and zero-in on exactly what I want to read. OK, different strokes for different folks - but you see what I mean.

I'm not sure it's a foregone conclusion that the List is migrating. I believe Dan is taking these posts seriously. There sure is a diversity of opinion to contend with! Even if there is a firm intention to migrate, I'm not a mind-reader, but I have a sense he will use this discussion for culling ideas on useability to discuss with the Dgrin people. So I think it is good that members are making points about the convenience of email delivery - but I'll still maintain my vote for the web-board concept, because I think it is overall much better.

Mark Segal

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: J Walton

Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:38 pm (PST)

On 4/20/07, Preston Earle wrote:

Enough already. Can't these replies be sent directly to the appropriate

decision-maker? I don't really need to know everyone's opinion.

If this were on a real web-forum you wouldn't have everybody's opinions sent to your email box! In fact Dan could start a thread that asks for a vote, and have the vote automatically tallied as everyone weighs in.

While there are benefits to receiving the list automatically whether you want it or not, I think the benefits of a PHP forum outweight the negatives.

Count this as a BIG vote in favor of moving to dgrin!

J Walton

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Howard Smith"

Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:54 am (PST)

Mark,

Thank you again for your comments. You are probably right that everything will work out well in the end, and you're almost certainly correct that Dan will consider all these comments when and if he negotiates with dgrin. Its just characteristic of me to hold back a bit and cautiously study the situation when potentially drastic changes are being made to something with which I feel comfortable. But at the same time progress necessitates change. The problem with getting older is that one has had to cope with so much change in life that it begins to get tiring having to keep doing it. On the other hand, it beats the alternative.

Thank you also for your comments about some of my contributions being worth holding onto. Actually, probably most of my posts are as much for clarifying ideas in my own mind as for sharing them. It's always interesting to find how much we can learn once we get our thoughts together well enough to share them with someone else. It's why I keep encouraging lurkers to make contributions of their own instead of staying on the sidelines. Even at the risk of having their ideas shot down (in which case they are bound to learn something useful), they will find that it helps everyone in one way or another when they speak up.

Howard Smith

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Tom Judd"

Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:54 am (PST)

larry wrote:

Not nearly as easy as saving the posts on your own computer. I have

the last 15,000 posts and can find anything in seconds. I also host a

forum on Yahoo that has over 3,800 photographers and though I've been

thinking of moving the forum, I won't until I find a web based forum

that allows subscribing to receive every post through e-mail (most

do) and to be able to reply to the posts through e-mail also.

I agree with this position. If this forum doesn't present new postings via email and allow me to reply that way, I will probably just drop off.

Tom Judd

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Lee Clawson"

Sat Apr 21, 2007 6:55 am (PST)

on 4/20/07 3:58 PM, John Ruttenbergwrote:

Well, if we were on dgrin right now, you could just unsubscribe to the

thread. It's a great example of one big advantage.

An advantage maybe. But we'd miss out on all the writers here we never have heard from. Maybe we should find out why what we're doing now keeps so many in the background.

And I'll (still) offer the delete key over any proposed "big advantage" feature.

Lee Clawson

2/\V/\7 Studio

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "MARK SEGAL"

Sat Apr 21, 2007 6:57 am (PST)

Tom, yes, if the change were made, each subscriber (and there aren't that large a number on this list - something over 3000 - with fewer participating on a regular basis) will have to decide whether the content of the postings is worth the effort of using a web board.

All those concerned about the hypothesized inconvenience should dig into the facts and see what is really involved. What you will find is that the number of parallel threads at any one time is not large (but the total number of subjects of course accumulates over time), the contribution rate of many users (posts per year) is low - each one of us can check our own or anyone else's with the "Search" function when we "Visit Your Group", and the volume of daily traffic is variable - from low to high. Hence the total amount of work required to use a web board for either reading or writing will be very moderate, while it provides all the organizational benefits and useability that has already been discussed by the moderators and a number of contributors.

If the change were made, I have two suggestions for dealing with this convenience concern, repeated so often since Dan posted the proposal: (1) Dan should check whether Dgrin can be configured so that members who want it can opt to receive each new posting by email without having to opt-in to each discussion thread; (2) even if that were not possible, those who are pre-disposed to not liking it should give it a fair trial for a couple of weeks and see whether they truly dislike it enough to drop out.

Mark Segal

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Mike Davis"

Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:33 am (PST)

As a subscriber to many forums and lists, I have adapted to each of those in which I share an interest. The daily digest in my inbox is welcome, but not essential. I created my Home web page (default) that simply lists links to those forums that I visit regularly. It's a simple task to go down the list and check for new threads and posts, and the layout reminds me to check each of them.

As Howard, I do save occasional posts. This is usually done with a simple cut and paste (oh, how I wish people would turn OFF the "include previous message in reply" option in their browsers and cut/paste only pertinent paragraphs!) of pertinent text into a Word or Notepad document. The forum format does discourage redundancy better than e-mails, I think.

Dilution of the "professionalism" might be a concern. I would like to think that those of us who are serious students of upper level color correction would remain involved for the information and expertise available, as well as the senior contributors. If Dan had his own group section, I would think that the level of knowledge would quickly sort out those interested in learning how the magic wand tool works. On the other hand, there have been some very good discussions of Dan's new books on a chapter by chapter basis in other sections of Dgrin, and these posts have been more "on topic" with regard to color theory and especially Dan's writings than many recent topics here, so I can see why the move is tempting.

For those of us who use a browser every day, it should be a simple matter to adjust. The embedded image capability alone is worth a vote.

Mike Davis

mldavis2 AT sbcglobal DOT net

http://www.pbase.com/mldavis2/

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Dan Dill"

Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:34 am (PST)

Is there a reason to not establish a standalone Web based forum, rather than moving to Dgrin? A very widely used tool to do this is

<http://www.vbulletin.com/>

I like Dgrin a lot, but might this list deserve its own Web forum, say <http://www.colortheoryforum.com/>?

Dan Dill

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "deb mayes"

Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:21 am (PST)

If lurkers get a vote, I'd rather not move.

I like dgrin and think it's a definite cut above the usual "what lense [sic] should I buy" sites. But I also love the convenience of getting messages from this group via email and saving the ones I can use without having to make it a point to go to a site, read individual threads, and save (or re-save) topics, which would take more space and more time. It's doable, but not as convenient.

That doesn't mean I insist on remaining with Yahoo. If another site (including dgrin) can provide the same (not alternate) functionality, then by all means move.

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Larry Wangelin"

Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:34 am (PST)

This "vote" could just as easily be set up on the present YAHOO site with a running tally. It's quite simple to do albeit anonymous. I think that the "vote" as it is carried out in its present form, is weighted by the length of ones post on the matter. And so it goes.

As for opting out of a thread if you don't like the theme or the poster what keeps one from highlighting the message in your email inbox now and hitting delete as it is without reading it?

Larry Wangelin

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Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "John Ruttenberg"

Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:35 am (PST)

Those who don't already follow dgrin may want to see this thread there:

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=59498

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Tom Fritz"

Sat Apr 21, 2007 12:38 pm (PST)

I agree with others who find that interaction with the forum through email is preferable. I have no great love of Yahoo, but I find that having all the discussion delivered to my mailbox allows me to easily keep up.

I participate in other discussion groups that use vBulletin as the engine for their web based forums and find that it is much less convenient and I don't keep up with those discussions in the same way I do on this list.

I understand the advantages that forum based discussion groups have to offer, but I would not want to loose the ability to interact through email. I am certain that my participation would dwindle and perhaps end if that ability were lost.

--Tom Fritz

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Murray DeJager"

Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:12 pm (PST)

Dan & Moderators,

I signed up with dgrin after reading Dan's original post about moving this forum. As to be expected I was intially confused and put off by their format. But after a few hours perusing the site and the different threads I got used to it.

Actually it was exactly the same process as when I first signed up for this group at Yahoo. With time I became comfortable with Yahoo also.

Now I personally like to log-in to Yahoo everyday so the idea of not being able to replying by email doesn't bother me. Reading the many posts from people who do like the email method makes me appreciate why thats an important feature however.

There are some things at dgrin that I still wonder if I can get used to though.

Andy, in the above link, promotes the benefit of being able to use "smilely' faces. I'm an easy going, like to have fun, kinda guy... but God I hate those things! Especially at the end of every paragraph!

I also don't like it when people can't identify themselves with their real name!

And there you have the ability to put a face to a name, but instead people put up photos of Darth Vader, or other dumb photos in place of their own face.

But like I said, I would probably get used to those quirks also. Why, because the information learned from this group of people is worth it! And I'm guessing that Dan won't add a row of smiley faces at the end of every paragraph he writes.

:) :) ;) ;0 :(

Take care,

"Plasma Man"...Murray DeJager... May the force be with you!

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: Ric Cohn

Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:14 pm (PST)

This was my first thought too. Mark S. makes it sound like there's an easy solution. However,maybe I'm just getting old <g?>, but my first impression of dgrin was of a cutsy amateur site. John R's links shows that there can be some serious discussion, but I don't find them particularly easy to read. I'm sure I'd get used to it, if necessary, to continue getting the excellent insights I've seen on this list.

Ric Cohn

On Apr 20, 2007, at 3:48 AM, Maris V. Lidaka Sr. wrote:

I had not considered this when I 'voted' yes. I agree with James Washer,

and much prefer email mailing lists to web forums. If dgrin.com is web

forum only, I would have to reluctantly disagree with moving the group

there.

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "awilliamsny"

Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:39 pm (PST)

Hi Folks,

I'm from Dgrin.

I've been reading all the discussion, it's been an eye opener, to me... I see that many of you would like the ability to continue with email-based replies and notifications. I'm presently looking at a way for this list to have it's cake and eat it too! True, we don't use email replies at Dgrin, but there appear to be some ways to do it. Give me a bit of time to investigate, and then discuss with Dan, and I'll come back and let you know where things stand.

In the meantime, we're also discussing it here, on Dgrin:

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=59498

BTW, while it's true that the memebers of ACT is head-and-shoulders over the average Dgrinner in terms of Photoshop and Color, there are a tremendous number of bright, talented artists, geeks, and nerds that might bring a different perspective on various topics to you guys. It's easy to skip over the "here's my cat" posts :)

As Dan said, we'd plan on you guys having your own sandbox... and it'd be the same-only-different :)

Looking forward to working with you guys, I truly want to put something together that will work for everyone!

- Andy

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "awilliamsny"

Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:40 pm (PST)

"Duffy Pratt" wrote:

I've had good experience with dgrin, and support this idea. The

only objection I've seen so far is that people can find the list now

by scanning the Yahoo groups. Wouldn't the change make it more likely

that actual posts would start appearing as results from internet

search engines, like google?

Oh yes... try this search, Duffy :) http: //tinyurl.com/2rnlu5

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Stephen Ramirez" stephenramirez@sbcglobal.net

Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:40 pm (PST)

Hi Murray

Andy, in the above link, promotes the benefit of being able to

use "smilely' faces. I'm an easy going, like to have fun, kinda

guy... but God I hate those things! Especially at the end of every

paragraph!

I also visited the link John sent and wasn't that knocked out by the smiley faces or reading white text against gray. If you click the button at the top for a printable version it displays as black text against white with no smiley faces only the avatars. I found it easier on the eyes and would probably choose that display if reading a long thread.

I also don't like it when people can't identify themselves with their

real name!

I believe everyone posting to Dan's forum is going to be required to have a signature with their full name at the end of each post. The name the person chooses for site membership does not have to be their real name.

Steve

Stephen Ramirez

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "awilliamsny"

Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:41 pm (PST)

Actually, the way it works is that all ACT members would be default subscribed to the ACT forum, you'd get email notices, and in the email notice you can simply unsubscribe from individual threads if you like....

So you won't miss a single minute of ACT :)

I hope this helps!

Andy

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "awilliamsny"\

Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:51 am (PST)

Hi, I suspect that your group would not use smilies :) Look, it's just different... but we should be able to reach a place where you are happy, too. The skin of the ACT forum can have any look/feel that this lists wants... Black bg, Grey bg, White, heck, viewer's choice if you want (look lower left on Dgrin, there are a bunch of styles to choose from).

We aim to please! Cheers :) (yes, I like smilies, because how else would you know I'm smiling as I type this? Rutt hates 'em, and he's managed to live with Dgrin since near the beginning, he could tell you more....

Andy Williams

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moving the list

Posted by: "Ruth Brown"

Sat Apr 21, 2007 6:58 am (PST)

I agree with this position. If this forum doesn't present new

postings via email and allow me to reply that way, I will probably

just drop off.

Tom Judd"

I hate Yahoo with a passion but have to agree with Tom above, also, would a move to a forum affect those still unable to access broadband, I understand there are parts of the US still without, I can't think those folk are going to be too pleased at having to mess around logging in and downloading or whatever they would have to do, especially if you're in parts where the service can be intermittent at best. Ruth

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Re: moving the list

Posted by: "Michael King"

Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:01 am (PST)

Ruth,

Completely agree. I run my work/ life via email and anytime I have to leave email e.g. to do online banking, its a real pain. Please don't move the list to a forum that isn't fully integrated with email.

Personally I am totally happy with the Yahoo hosting of this and several other forums I subscribe to.

Txs,

Mike King

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Proposal to move the list -- Answers to some questions

Posted by: "John Ruttenberg"

Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:24 am (PST)

We've been in close communications with the dgrin folks and there are some answers to questions which have been raised here.

* Will I be able to get instant email notification of all posts to ACT dgrin forum? Yes. Currently dgrin offers forum subscritions, but not instant email notifications. The ACT forum will extend this feature and offer instant email notifications as well.

* Do the notifications include the complete text of the posts? Yes.

* Can I post to dgrin via email? No, not to my knowledge.

OK, let's see if we can consolidate any other questions so I can try to get them answered. Maybe we can hold off debate about the merits of the move until we can get all the questions answered and make a definitive list of what the actual changes will be?

Thanks.

-- John Ruttenberg

(ACT Moderator)

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Re: Proposal to move the list -- Answers to some questions

Posted by: "Jerry Fusselman"

Sat Apr 21, 2007 12:41 pm (PST)

Thanks for the information! My question is this:

What is the full, fastest procedure for posting? I would like to see a complete list of the necessary steps. That is, how many extra steps, or how much more time, is needed for posting over the current way with email posts? And how many different screens must one go through?

-Jerry Fusselman

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Re: Proposal to move the list -- Answers to some questions

Posted by: "awilliamsny"

Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:39 pm (PST)

Hi John,

I'm investigating an email-reply solution, I'd love it if ACT could have the cake and eat it too! You know how I just love to try and please everyone :)

No promises but I'm researching it now.

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Re: Proposal to move the list -- Answers to some questions

Posted by: "Maris V. Lidaka Sr."

Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:51 am (PST)

Andy,

A word to the wise - please skip the smileys.

And Dan generally requires a full real name in the message's signature - but I guess he's made an exception in your case.

Maris V. Lidaka Sr.

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Re: Proposal to move the list -- Answers to some questions

Posted by: "John Ruttenberg"

Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:15 am (PST)

I wasn't the one who approved Andy's message without signature, but I've approved quite a few messages without signatures (often my own) by accident. It's a failing of mine, something I strive to be better at. If only it were my worst imperfection. Ask my wife.

-- John Ruttenberg

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Re: Proposal to move the list -- Answers to some questions

Posted by: "awilliamsny"

Sun Apr 22, 2007 7:15 am (PST)

Oh and by the way, just so you know, we're looking at ways where those who don't like smilies don't have to see them.

Andy Williams

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Re: Proposal to move the list -- Answers to some questions

Posted by: "Howard Smith"

Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:31 am (PST)

John,

Where you're concerned my only complaint has always been that you don't do enough of your challenging posts. Every time you post a problem it kicks my thinking into gear. Your post of your Aunt's portrait of your Mother was particularly stimulating. One never knows where the next really creative idea will pop up, but yours are pretty consistent in generating new ideas. Of course it could be that your posts stand out because so few others ever post their problem images. Mike Russell's recent post of the African women grinding grain also proved to be a great boon. It's really incredible how much can be done with an image that, on the surface, looks like a lost cause.

Howard Smith

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Re: Proposal to move the list -- Answers to some questions

Posted by: "Murray DeJager"

Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:50 pm (PST)

Hi Andy,

And what about that photo of you that always seems to be "winking" at me while I read your posts. :) (Damn, I used a smiley!)

Murray DeJager

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Howard Smith"

Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:28 am (PST)

Man! That is a good summary! My feelings exactly.

Let's all hope Dan can work out an e-mail format. So far as subscribing to only those threads that interest us-anyone who does that to save a couple of minutes of browsing is likely to miss little things that can alter their ways of thinking and working with Photoshop. Some of my best ideas have been gleaned from relatively off-topic posts. It just takes one or two sentences to turn on the lights and ring all the bells. On the other hand it seems likely that it would take far more than a couple of minutes to wade through the current dgrin message format. seeking to extract key points. If we have to curtail our browsing or resort to limiting it to selected threads because otherwise it's consuming too much time, we might as well go back to reading books and magazines. The overwhelming advantage of e-mail posts is that it gives us quick access to brief summaries, each of which can be scanned for usefulness in a matter of seconds, not to mention the ability to save any or all of them with the click of a button.

Howard Smith

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Graham Bird"

Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:43 pm (PST)

Folks

I'm surprised that Google Groups hasn't cropped up in the discussion as an alternative to dgrin. I'm my (albeit short) experience it does everything (specifically, the threaded web view, the email receive and response and the advanced search) that seem to be the key requirements.

Apart from being a different platform - which may be an issue - it otherwise seems a very close (perfect?) fit with the requirements I have seen articulated here.

Cheers

Graham Bird

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: Mark Segal

Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:48 pm (PST)

Howard,

For goodness' sake. One would think the whole world is being turned up-side-down on us.

Let us cut through a few facts:

(1) Every user can customize the format to make it as dead or as lively as they want.

(2) Every user can chose to create an avatar or not, as they please.

(3) Every user can chose to have dancing disneys and smilies as they please or not.

(4) ACT just isn't big enough or active enough to create a problem about keeping up with what is new. The format automatically shows you what's new each time you open the page. You just look and click.

(5) Each user can open or not open whatever strings they want to look at. You can read everything, something or nothing.

(6) There are several ways of easily saving material.

(7) Even if you don't - unlike Yahoo - it's all nicely organized by topic so you can go back to it painlessly.

(8) Each user can select the email notification options they want from all the options to be offered.

I find much of the discussion about this issue a tempest in a teapot, but someone will probably think I'm obnoxious for saying so; fine, that's my opinion. I know - old habits die hard; I'm 65 and I guess I'm one of those old dogs that likes learning new tricks. That's why I'm here - every obnoxious bit of me. :-)

Interesting that Dan has said very little since the debate opened. I'm not a mind-reader, but I think he's letting a 100 flowers bloom and then he'll decide how to handle it. That's good. But stop and think for a moment - all these years he's had Yahoo. How many readers of this discussion have stopped to wonder why all of the sudden he's proposing to change it? Complaints about the issues with Yahoos list have been aired and well known for a long time now. Do you remember he said he was stopping to write books? Do you remember he said he is developing new techniques and once he's ready he wants to share them? Do you agree from reading Dan's books that such techniques are best explained with illustrations? Do you see from how dgrin works how seemlessly you can integrate text and images to explain concepts? Does all this begin to make sense?

Cheers,

Mark Segal

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Dolores Kaufman"

Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:19 pm (PST)

That's the most refreshing and intelligent post I've read so far on the subject. Of course I have to admit I didn't read them all (suppressed smiley). I cast my vote with you as another old dog who likes learning new tricks.

Dolores

On Apr 22, 2007, at 3:23 PM, Mark Segal wrote:

Howard,

For goodness' sake. One would think the whole world is being turned

up-side-down on us.

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Lee Clawson"

Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:24 am (PST)

on 4/21/07 12:22 PM, John Ruttenberg wrote:

Those who don't already follow dgrin may want to see this thread there:

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=59498

Just got a chance to see this. And once again look around the rest of the sight. I'm sorry, the more I see of this site the less I like it and its "look and feel". I'm hard pressed to think that after evaluating other choices (we did that didn't we?) that this is this best we can do ??

Lee Clawson

2/\V/\7 Studio

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Re: moving the list

Posted by: "John R"

Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:20 pm (PST)

I will follow wherever, but I want to add that I do not follow many of the long threads. If Dan speaks, I immediately go to the thread to see his replies. I hope if moved, that I will still be able to see when this happens. Sometimes I read the rest of you, I do appreciate if you read a query of mine, but I don't have alot of time to read about someone that loves to endlessly speak on histograms. An actual color file discusson is preferred. Thanks.

John Robinson

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Pylant, Brian"

Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:18 am (PST)

I'm not sure what the original motivation was to suggest this move: was it simply to get away from Yahoo, regardless of the destination? Or was it specifically to move to a forum-style interaction?

If the former, perhaps the listadmins should look into alternate locations to host an email list (and there are many, most webhosting plans include some sort of discussion list application as part of the standard server offerings) rather than a forum, given the apparent level of disinterest in switching to a forum.

Is there a reason to not establish a standalone Web based forum,

rather than moving to Dgrin? A very widely used tool to do this is

<http://www.vbulletin.com/>

Which is what Dgrin uses, sad to say. I find phpBB to be superior to vBulliten as a forum engine, although I do not think it provides the level of email integration that many of the listmembers appear to require.

On the many forums I participate in I have set my prefs to automatically send me email notification of new posts to any thread I've started or posted to, andI can manually subscribe to any others I wish. I still manually browse the forum, and quite honestly I prefer to do it that way as I find it much easier to skip over threads I'm not interested it -- no deleting involved, I simply don't click on them in the first place.

... or reading white text against gray.

They have definitely made *very* poor choices in terms of their visual theme, that's for sure. Hopefully, if we move to Dgrin, we can control that on a per-forum basis (i.e. we don't have to follow the theme applied to the entire site). And, once again, my vote for phpBB over vBulliten extends to their interface and themes as well -- the default phpBB appearance is very easy to view, read and navigate.

One other area where vBulliten fails miserably is their search engine. Simply terrible, in fact most of the vBulliten forums I visit have integrated a Google search to get around this failing.

BRIAN PYLANT

Manager, Electronic Prepress

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::

Disc Makers

7905 North Route 130, Pennsauken, NJ 08110

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "deb mayes"

Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:41 am (PST)

Respectfully, Mark, this has nothing to do with reluctance to learn new tricks but convenience and time management. Board driven sites take more time and effort. I've given up on several for that reason; I just couldn't fit them in.

If the posts here weren't so good, it wouldn't be an issue. So you share the blame for that "tempest in a teapot." :-)

Deb Mayes

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: Mark Segal

Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:35 pm (PST)

Deb, I see your point; but I would offer two considerations on that point: (1) there are well-designed and poorly-designed web board forums. I think the good ones are very quick and easy to use - at least I find so. (2) Web discussion formats (be it email or web board) all serve a variety of purposes, and I think you'd find that the different formats have different strengths and weaknesses depending on the function, so it isn't a blanket superiority of the one over the other - rather a balance of pros and cons weighted by what's important, and clearly the latter varies considerably from person to person.

Mark Segal

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Re: Proposal to move the list - Best Forum template (phpBB)

Posted by: "Adriano Esteves"

Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:09 am (PST)

hello all,

This forum look/design discussion is very pertinent and dgrin.com has a lot to be desired visually, so in quest for neutrality, let me share one of the best/cleaneast/neutral templates ever made for phpBB wich is the best forum solution software available.

These layouts were made my Mike Lothar [http: //www.mikelothar.com], I'm currently using NoseBleed for a forum I administrate.

The links: http://hqtheme.com/mikelothar/styles.html

You can browse Mike's templates, my vote goes for the Nosebleed skin which is almost as neutral as e-mail and for the minimalists we have the

Paperclip which is as e-mail as it gets with all the good stuff of phpBB.. For the black fans you have Ad Infinitum, and even (is it fate?) Conundrum Skin.

I think this eliminates most of the design worries, but I can be wrong :) Again I offer my services for the design needs (if any) on the new look of the forum.

Adriano

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Re: Proposal to move the list - Best Forum template (phpBB)

Posted by: "Lee Clawson"

Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:02 pm (PST)

Adriano,

You're missing (and likely many others) the idea I'm trying to get across. Design is more than the pretty stuff you see when you visit a site. To quote Mitch Kapor, "It was the fundamental creative act of imagining the user's needs and devising structures in software (the underlying code) to fulfill those needs.

What I read, in what has to be the most varied group of voices ever, is a group of posters trying to identify those needs.

Lee Clawson

2/\V/\7 Studio

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Chris Brown"

Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:03 pm (PST)

Case in point: All the list activity in the last few days on this topic has been more quickly and readily perused via email than it ever would have been by logging into a forum and plodding through the posts.

Cheers ~

Chris Brown

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: Mark Segal

Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:31 pm (PST)

Chris, I think this whole discussion has pretty much run its course, but I just had to jump in yet again, because I really think this is not correct. You can tell me how I'm wrong about this. In the present format, if you want to follow the discussion, or go back through it to trace whatever, you need to click open each email in sequence till you're done. With a web-board, all the contributions would be sorted under one *topic*. The process is: (1) Open the web-board (on L-L this takes me less than a second). (2) Click open the topic link (again, no time); (3) simply scroll down all the posts with the scroll wheel on your mouse and read what you want. I'm not trying to be obstinate, but I truly fail to see how emails are more efficient than this.

Mark Segal

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "zthreen lists"

Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:33 pm (PST)

Of course, this particular thread can be completely ignored in a forum :) (I like smileys.)

The other thing a forum can set up is a poll, where everybody just votes on what they want (and can leave a comment if they so choose).

I'll just say the information here is useful enough to me I'll stick with it even if it moves. I've bought both LAB and Professional Photoshop. In for a penny, in for a pound.

Matthew Rigdon

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "John Ruttenberg"

Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:40 am (PST)

Lee Clawson:

I'm sorry, the more I see of this site the less I like it and its

"look and feel". I'm hard pressed to think that after evaluating other

choices (we did that didn't we?) that this is this best we can do ??

When I read this, I realized that I really haven't explained one of the most important motivations for the proposed move: interaction with the photographic community at dgrin. Howard has been very complimentary in mentioning some of the problem images I have posted here. On dgrin, I've learned a ton by interacting with the photographers and their images. Sometimes, I teach the same lesson over and over again. But I don't have to do this; I just do and it's helped me get better at explaiing simple things. More often, I choose interesting images which pose interesting problems. I've found that the dgrin people are a good mix of receptive and critical. Edits which don't actually improve things or which are more complex than simple things which produce the same results don't get far.

Look, there is one big technical issue which is rubbing the people here the wrong way: lack of a complete email bridge. The site design issues are all open. The underling technology is very flexible and we can design out own skin (Andy has already designed a starting point which is different from the default dgrin look.) I expect that Dan will have some ideas about this at some point. So really, I think the email bridge issue is the only real downside.

On the plus side, I to see us become more relevant by working on more case studies of wide range of images. I want to get a better understanding of which of our discussions really can hold their own in a bigger audience.

--John Ruttenberg

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Re: Proposal to move

Posted by: "Howard Smith"

Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:03 pm (PST)

Mark,

I'm with you on this. It's important for everyone to be able to offer input on something like this proposed change, but in the end we're an adaptable species. Within a month or two of any change-or no change-we'll probably all be back to business as usual. Certainly it would be nice to be able to see the images being discussed even though this can be sticky ground for folks who are sensitive about criticism. Maybe the moderators can insert a cautionary note that criticism should never be taken personally, but rather should be considered an educational process. No matter whether or not we agree with it, especially criticism of our unquestionably flawless work, it's better than having well-meaning friends telling us what we like to hear. Considering the possibilities for learning from criticism, maybe the educational possibilities will be increased with this new format. Anyway, we'll see, and we'll survive.

It's always good to see your thoughtful posts, Mark.

Howard Smith

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Terry Wyse"

Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:35 am (PST)

I'll tell you what kills me is that this "tempest in a teapot" discussion about something that is way off-topic for this list has been allowed to go on for DAYS where other more thoughtful discussions that are WAY more on topic are cut off because they don't suit everybody's taste. Enough with the "Proposal to move this list" spam already. I'm quite sure the powers-that-be have enough varied opinions to make some sort of decision by now. And from what I've been able to gather, Mark Segal and a few others are about the only folks offering useful comments on this subject. The rest sound like, well, a bunch of whiners quite frankly when nothing of real substance has even happened yet.

Now, lets get back to our regularly scheduled programming...

;-)

Later,

Terry Wyse

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: André Dumas

Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:00 am (PST)

Terry,

I don't like your definition of some of us as "a bunch of whiners".

Did you mean "Infidels" ? That would have been more in keeping with what is really going on here.

Could someone tell me who are the "powers-that-be". Names, please.

André Dumas

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Pylant, Brian"

Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:00 am (PST)

Case in point: All the list activity in the last few days on this

topic has been more quickly and readily perused via email than it

ever would have been by logging into a forum and plodding

through the posts.

Well, I would disagree with that. All this overexaggerated talk about how difficult it is to access a forum is, well, overexaggerated. If this were on the forum, you would log on and view the subject line of each thread, just like with an email reader. Then you click on the thread, and all the messages come up at which point you read down the list. Just like an email reader.

I definitely see the disadvantage for folks who read their backlog email offline (on a plane, train, etc.) but in speaking in specific regard to the mechanics of reading the posts there is almost no difference in time or effort.

Once again, I don't care which way we go, but some of these arguments are just a little silly and overblown IMO.

BRIAN PYLANT

Manager, Electronic Prepress

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::

Disc Makers

7905 North Route 130, Pennsauken, NJ 08110

Toll free: 1-800-468-9353 ext. 5539

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Ray St.Arnaud"

Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:02 am (PST)

My inclination was to stick with the current format, yahoo digest delivered to my door.

I have been swayed by the arguments in favor of the forum for one primary reason, this will give Dan the opportunity to become an instant publisher and save him the tedium of the traditional publishing process. We get the benefit of information that is hotter then, "hot off the press".

Regards

Ray

Raymond St. Arnaud

Audio Visual Services

Camosun College

Interurban Campus

250-370-4616

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Chris Brown"

Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:03 am (PST)

Mark,

You're not wrong. I was simply pointing out that this topic has provoked almost one hundred responses and, using the daily digest method of message retrieval, I am able to read the thread more quickly and efficiently than having to log on to a php forum.

On the other hand, when I have the time I enjoy participating in php forums. Most of the programs that I've experienced provide a far better GUI and user experience than the YahooGroups format. I haven't looked hard, but I think the YahooGroups format is the worst on the 'net for browsing topics. The current crop of php forum programs are much more powerful (post images, music, links, etc.) and the potential for learning from discussions is far better, IMO.

I'm also familiar with email notifications from php boards. It's handy, but I haven't experienced a forum that allows me to respond via email and it posts it for me automatically. That's what I want: full email functionality and excellent GUI browsing/search functionality. It may not be available now, but it'll come.

Cheers ~

Chris Brown

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: Dan Margulis

Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:09 am (PST)

Here are some brief responses from the road to some of the points raised in this thread.

First, a big thanks to all who responded. Many points were brought up pro and con that we had not considered fully. The back-and-forth debate was especially useful. I thank also Andy Williams for visiting and being responsive to our concerns.

*The final decision here will be taken by the list moderators. The initial proposal that was posted to the group was written by me but all other moderators had approved the draft. I have only spoken to one other moderator about this since the thread began. As I have been traveling since the OP, I have not been able to review everything in the depth I would like, so I in fact have no opinion at the moment. Before posting one, in any case, there will be a discussion with all moderators to see what our consensus position is.

*If the decision had been already made irrevocably there would have been no point in posting a request for comment and certainly not for leaving the thread open for as long as we have. I was surprised by many of the points that were made; I know that at least one other moderator was also; and it appears from reading Andy's posts that he was surprised as well. We need to take stock of what can be done to accommodate everyone.

*Setting up an automated offline vote on this issue would not have been useful. First, we don't have full information on every aspect of the proposed change. Second, we don't count every vote equally--while we value the opinion of lurkers, we will naturally give greater weight to the views of list regulars. Third, the question is not so much how a person is voting but *why*. Most of the reasons stated for or against make sense. A few are silly. Fourth, I for one am getting more from reading the rebuttals than the original posts. Fifth, several people have posted saying that they were originally of one opinion but then changed their mind in view of the arguments of others.

*Re restricting the rights of non-members to read list messages. This continues the status quo. Non-members cannot currently access either current messages or the list archives kept by yahoogroups. (The archives at http://www.ledet.com/margulis are open to all.)

*Re anonymous posts. This is a group populated largely by professionals for serious discussion. Anyone who is not willing to share their full name with us belongs elsewhere. Many problems are caused on other lists by irresponsible posts from anonymous parties. We have *always* had the policy that posts must be identified with a full name and will not change it. A couple of years ago, we changed the policy to require (with sporadic enforcement) that a full name be signed to each post even when the name appeared in the return address. This was largely in response to a thread in which there were posts from Andrew Engelhardt, Andrew Haley, Andrew Rodney, and Andrew Webb. That policy is inconvenient and will be made obsolete if we move to dgrin, where we would require a full name in the avatar block. Additionally, if we do this, I will propose to the other moderators that we crack down on excessively long signature blocks within the message that advertise services.

*I approved certain anonymous posts to this thread only because it seemed clear that it needed input from lurkers. Other than that, the only time I've permitted anonymous posts to go through (and I forwarded them to the list myself, for obvious reasons) was where the poster had a reasonable fear of offending somebody off-list, such as a boss who might come across the post and read it as a reflection on him personally. I have been asked to waive the no-anonymity rules by teachers who feel they would be embarrassed if it were known that they were asking such simple questions. I have also been asked to have separate anonymity rules for men and for women. No sale in either case.

*Re: investigating other possibilities. This suggestion makes sense on the assumption that the moderators have unlimited time to devote to the question of the list future. We do not. We have had some areas of dissatisfaction with the way the list runs now, but we do not have the time to custom-design our own structure, and we do not wish to lose the list's identity by merging with some larger organization. We need someone to carry the ball for us. As you have seen, Andy is willing to do that, while preserving the list's identity as something separate from the rest of dgrin. In view of their strong history of covering color-correction matters dgrin is an obvious match for us. Whether some other group might be better is unknown.

*Re: being flooded by off-topic posts from new members. It's not going to happen. We have for some time rejected posts from new members who are seeking to use us as a general help desk or who are asking enormously broad questions. This policy will continue whether or not we move.

I thank members again for their thoughtful comments. What other list has such loyal subscribers that a discussion of its future would provoke such a large response? It seems, however, that the thread has pretty much run its course and I'd suggest winding it down until we hear back either from Andy or from the moderators as a group.

Dan Margulis

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Re: restricting the rights of non-members to read list messages (was

Posted by: "Pylant, Brian"

Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:57 pm (PST)

Again, why this restriction? What is it protecting us against, vs. the benefit of attracting new members by allowing them to read the group before they join?

As someone who prefers to register only to those forums that I feel are truly beneficial to me, in an attempt to minimize clutter and spam, I generally just pass on any that won't allow me to read before I register.

I'm sorry, I fail to see the reasoning here, but I'd like to hear the thoughts of those who do think this is a good policy.

BRIAN PYLANT

Manager, Electronic Prepress

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Lee Clawson"

Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:40 am (PST)

John,

You describe the most important motivations for the proposed move as "interaction with the photographic community at dgrin". I'm sure you've learned a lot but teaching of lessons and interacting with their images, while highly valued by you, is not something I have time for.

Each time you, Mark or others writes with praise for "dgrin" in I go looking for what I'm missing. I sure want to say otherwise but after numerous recent visits I still don't see the big gains. (And if I consider the users connecting via modem or other devices I'm less enamored of the move to this site.) With "dgrin's" site as the only idea and/or choice being offered this begins to sound like another plug for this site similar to the one you mentioned (January 30, 2007) in conducting the reading group with them.

With regard to the site design being flexible there still seems to be a gap between design as "skin" (visual appearances) versus a functionality derived from understanding wants and needs of the users. I'd like it if we asked what the wants and needs of this group are.

I also wonder about the bigger audience you expect. We have a rather large group but until the recent "move "question I hadn't heard but from a small number of them. Why we're going to get such a big influx of writers ?

I know its very likely you care more about the fate of this list than I do. And you certainly do much more work keeping it going in its current form. While I'd like to help Dan's list continue I regret I (still) can't find merit in a direction that takes us to "dgrin".

Lee Clawson

2/\V/\7 Studio

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Graham Bird"

Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:44 am (PST)

Folks

On Apr 25, 2007, at 7:29 PM, Lee Clawson wrote:

You describe the most important motivations for the proposed move as

"interaction with the photographic community at dgrin". I'm sure you've

learned a lot but teaching of lessons and interacting with their images,

while highly valued by you, is not something I have time for.

I echo that feeling. I belong to this list to learn about the techniques that Dan holds dear and writes about. I search out very precisely those fora to which I'll invest time (either reading or contributing).

Each time you, Mark or others writes with praise for "dgrin" in I go looking

for what I'm missing. I sure want to say otherwise but after numerous recent

visits I still don't see the big gains. (And if I consider the users

connecting via modem or other devices I'm less enamored of the move to this

site.) With "dgrin's" site as the only idea and/or choice being offered

this begins to sound like another plug for this site similar to the one you

mentioned (January 30, 2007) in conducting the reading group with them.

Again, I have a similar feeling. Why are other locations not being considered. I proposed - in an earlier email - Google Groups for consideration. As far as I can see it meets every stated requirement except that of being part of the dgrin community.

I also wonder about the bigger audience you expect. We have a rather large

group but until the recent "move "question I hadn't heard but from a small

number of them. Why we're going to get such a big influx of writers ?

The statistics for most (all, except Wikipedia, as far as I see) are very similar. The 1% 10% "rule" of passionate users vs contributors seems to hold good in almost all cases. So increasing the universe in which we fish (the long tail in web parlance) will increase the participants, but don't expect to change the 10% of members participating "norm".

Cheers

Graham Bird

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Jane_ Edwards"

Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:49 pm (PST)

One more comment about the change: I am quite happy with the status quo, and might need a 101 to become familiar with the new interface. I suppose that can happen. But I find the light text on a dark background extremely hard to read, and am not sure how much I want to struggle with that. Any chance of getting it changed to black text on a white background?

Jane Edwards

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "Jono Moore"

Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:23 am (PST)

I'm a little late to the party, but I'd like to put another vote in for Google Groups - the best of all worlds: threaded messages, email (summary, digest and full), searchable, rss feeds, tiered membership (managers, users, etc.), file storage and built-in web pages.

Web forums are a pain in the rear for following multiple conversations in a useful manner. I belong to more than a few such forums and generally dislike them because of ease-of-use issues.

Jono Moore

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Re: restricting the rights of non-members to read list messages (was

Posted by: "zthreen lists"

Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:40 am (PST)

I don't understand this policy. I would think that if all the messages could be searched by a non-member, perhaps he could find the answer to his question and not have to sign up at all. Or perhaps realize that this isn't the appropriate place for the question at all.

It may have protected the identities of people on the list, but all you have to do is sign up and then harvest everyone's identities.

I've heard the arguments for blocking access or keeping anonymity for political discussions, but I don't believe anyone has ever been arrested, beaten, or executed for expressing his or her views on color correction (but the month of April isn't over yet).

Matthew Rigdon

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Re: restricting the rights of non-members to read list messages

Posted by: Henry Davis

Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:49 pm (PST)

I suppose there is a perceived difference between a member and a non-member. "Why is membership required in the first place?" is a question that precedes the current question of restrictions. I don't know what vetting takes place, if any, but the notion that there are membership requirements, rules, and that there is active monitoring, ironically lends a certain freedom to the discussions.

There are other groups, especially commercial, industrial and trade related groups, that are restricted and actively deny membership. I don't find this to be odd nor do I think that this is somehow wrong. I rather actually respect their policy in this regard.

If inappropriate behavior occurs as defined by the owner, or if there is off-list unpleasantness, then it wouldn't be because of a lack of policy with regard to the unrestricted availability of messages. I think the restrictions are an appropriate precaution for the list owner.

A relevant question is: Did the restrictions prevent current members from becoming members?

This list, thankfully, is actively managed. There are others that have started out nicely, yet evolved into noisy and valueless anarchy. If restrictions can help to prevent this, then they are not always a negative thing.

Henry Davis

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Re: restricting the rights of non-members to read list messages

Posted by: J Walton

Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:15 am (PST)

On 4/26/07, Henry Davis wrote:

I suppose there is a perceived difference between a member and a

non-member. "Why is membership required in the first place?" is a

question that precedes the current question of restrictions.

I don't think that's the case. I haven't heard of anyone questioning the need for ANY restrictions. A non-member should not be allowed to post to the list, for example. The problem that has been raised (and is echoed by me) is that non-members are not allowed to even READ the posts on the list.

And the frequent question is: "Why?" I would love to hear the moderators explain the reasoning on that, beyond "that's the way it is right now." There may be a good reason, I just haven't seen it yet.

A relevant question is: Did the restrictions prevent current members

from becoming members?

I don't think that's the right question. Obviously the current members were not prevented from becoming members. The more relevant question is: What kind of people are detracted from signing up because of the current restrictions? Would the list improve if non-members could lurk?

This list, thankfully, is actively managed. There are others that have

started out nicely, yet evolved into noisy and valueless anarchy. If

restrictions can help to prevent this, then they are not always a

negative thing.

Agreed.

J Walton

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Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "John Ruttenberg"

Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:43 pm (PST)

Actually, you can change it yourself if you register as a member.

--John Ruttenberg

Jane_ Edwards:

One more comment about the change: I am quite happy with the status

quo, and might need a 101 to become familiar with the new interface.

I suppose that can happen. But I find the light text on a dark

background extremely hard to read, and am not sure how much I want to

struggle with that. Any chance of getting it changed to black text on

a white background?

___________________________________________________________________________

Re: restricting the rights of non-members to read list messages

Posted by: "Pylant, Brian"

Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:51 pm (PST)

The more relevant question

is: What kind of people are detracted from signing up because of the

current restrictions?

That is exactly my point. Why are we preventing people from simply reading the posts, previewing the group to see if it's a good fit for them, before they make a decision to register? IMO this is not protecting us from anything at all, and therefore shouldn't be in place.

BRIAN PYLANT

Manager, Electronic Prepress

___________________________________________________________________________

Re: restricting the rights of non-members to read list messages

Posted by: "Lee Clawson"

Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:09 pm (PST)

Brian,

I rather not have restrictions. No reason I can think of to protect "us". Unless they're worried that the "Dgrin" community will be so excited at being part of ACT and having more (direct) access to Dan that they'd overwhelm our existing group.

Lee Clawson

2/\V/\7 Studio

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Re: restricting the rights of non-members to read list messages (was

Posted by: Dan Margulis

Thu May 3, 2007 6:56 am (PST)

This replies to questions as to the rationale for not permitting nonmembers to read list messages, other than the archives posted at http://www.ledet.com/margulis

At yahoogroups this is a user-configurable option, with the default being that nonmembers may *not* read. We have elected not to change it.

I don't think that it's a big deal either way, however FWIW here is why I would be against changing it whether or not we move the list.

The list is intended for those who have attended my classes or read my writings, and wish to discuss the topics contained therein. We never contemplated, nor did we desire, a membership as large as we currently have, or a message volume as high as we have. While there is no objection to lurkers, we have enough members of this list already whose objectives are not those stated above. All members of the target audence already know how to sign up for this list if they choose to; anybody else can get descriptions of what it covers easily enough. My feeling is that if a person has doubts as to whether they should go to the effort of signing up, so do I.

While new members often post interesting things, they also post irrelevancies and/or attempt to use the list as a generalized help desk, after which they vanish and are never heard of again. Current list members may not be aware of this because we have been rejecting such posts for a couple of years--the problem got so bad that we announced a policy of approval-at-moderator-discretion for new members until they had established themselves. If non-members had access to the current list postings before signing up, I believe the problem would get worse--we'd see a lot of model-specific questions, and additions to lively threads that already strain the list's bandwidth.

Several people commented during the recent dgrin thread that they were concerned about dilution of the list by adding a large number of new members. Again, I don't think it's a matter of enormous consequence, but I would prefer to be conservative about how easy we make it for people to join.

Dan Margulis

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Re: restricting the rights of non-members to read list messages (was

Posted by: J Walton

Thu May 3, 2007 2:29 pm (PST)

As much as I was in favor of opening things up to encourage new users, I can understand the rationale here. The list was *a lot* smaller when I first joined, and the signal-noise ratio was a lot better too.

I suppose this is something we can always change down the road if it seems advisable - baby steps!

J Walton

___________________________________________________________________________

Re: Proposal to move the list

Posted by: "michael.aery"

Thu May 3, 2007 7:01 am (PST)

I vote to move the list.

I have no need for an email interface.

I find the dgrin site easy to navigate and customize.

The ability to include images is reason enough.

The sooner the better.

Regards,