Dan Margulis Applied Color Theory

Dan's Photoshop World Sessions

Dan's Photoshop World Sessions
Posted by: Dan Margulis
Mon May 4, 2009 8:31 am (PDT)

This week I have to give some answers to the Kelby folk about what I intend to do at October's Photoshop World in Las Vegas. When I talk to them, I may also be asked about plans for future videos with Kelby Training. I don't have any problem with content, but sometimes it's difficult for me to understand what it is that people want me to teach. So if anyone would like to make any topic suggestions, now is the time.

1) Photoshop World. My current format, and it's been this way for a year, is a four-hour session on advanced LAB, plus a two-hour session called "Every File Has 10 Channels" and another one on the picture postcard workflow. For Las Vegas, I can make the argument that the LAB and Picture Postcard presentations are so different that they count as new content, but it will be tough to make that case for the channels session. My thoughts for a replacement would be either a) Adventures in Layer Masking or b) There Are No Bad Originals. The first one seems self-explanatory. The second, I'm less and less sure of. My idea was to correct a bunch of very poor originals and show sort of a checklist on how to pick a strategy. The problem with it is that many advanced users don't necessarily face all that many really bad images.

But I am certainly all ears for other topic proposals. There's only one catch: I'm not going to do anything beginner-friendly. A lot of people attend Photoshop World specifically because they want to attend my sessions and they want them at a very challenging level. The last time I tried something more accessible it backfired, and neither I nor Scott want to try it again.

2) Kelby Training. They would like me to do five more, two hours apiece. With the reduced schedule I'm running in the second half of the year (see yesterday's post) there is some possibility I can accommodate them.

The previous five were two on LAB, three on the picture postcard workflow. At least two, and maybe three, of the five are obvious: a remake of the ten-channels thing. I've also though of videos on preparing for CMYK, layer masking, and the aforementioned stuff on how to deal with bad originals. Plus, the prohibition against something easier doesn't apply here as it would at Photoshop World. I could do a session on basic curving, for example.

At Photoshop World the sponsors and I had an inspiration. We asked the classes, who were fairly advanced users, to suggest topics for future videos on their course evaluations. What we got was approximately 20 responses saying that they were dying to see any new videos that I had to offer and they hoped they would be completed as quickly as possible. But, regrettably, not one suggestion for topic. I hope you can do better!

Dan Margulis
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Re: Dan's Photoshop World Sessions
Posted by: "Laurentiu Todie"
Mon May 4, 2009 10:00 am (PDT)

On May 4, 2009, at 11:20 AM, Dan Margulis wrote:

b) There Are No Bad Originals.

A book can be written about this subject

starting with the ubiquitous sarcastic put-down: I can do that, it's not so great! (especially when it comes to conceptual art, that's… the idea : ) conceptual art is work-by-instructions that can be generated at nauseam its value is not esthetic; it can be, but that's the artist's prerogative, not the viewer's

also, since most people are in favor of sharp pictures, they should be informed that Bresson called sharpness a bourgeois concept.

and that an overzealous retoucher once "cleaned" Cindy Crawford's mole; her trade mark : )

Take a look at this and tell yourself if it has any "value"; if it is a "good picture:
http: //www.gerhard-richter.com/includes/retrieve.image.php?paintID=6537&size= xl

2) Kelby Training

My suggestion can be made into an 8 hour movie or much less, and maybe even in a long series of videos : )
A Work Day in the Life of a Photo Retoucher/Pre Press Operator
How the operator prepares his/her station, receives work from the production department, processes it, sends it to proofing and finally to the customer or press; with interviews of the production people, shops owners, retouchers, press people, web designers, sales personnel, clients…

Enjoy,
Laurentiu
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Re: Dan's Photoshop World Sessions
Posted by: "Jim Bean"
Mon May 4, 2009 10:00 am (PDT)

dan wrote:

a) My idea was to correct a bunch of very poor originals and show sort of a checklist on how to pick a strategy. The problem with it is that many advanced users don't necessarily face all that many really bad images.

maybe we don't always deal with substandard images... but several things are common:
1) intially many times we don't evaluate the image correctly for what is important.. such as the magazine image of the lady in the pool... I checked off on reasonable skin tone and wasted time wondering about the lounge chairs... never considering a suntan to be necessary.
2) not unlike every image has ten channels, many problems have common solutions.. some better than others-It would be nice to show and explain a good and then a better approach ... when I see someone demonstrating a workflow or image correction many times I will see a technique that will assist me in an entirely different application...

I like the idea of working on a bunch of images and as you knock them out...explain what your are doing and why.

If you keep the material and the process challenging I cannot imagine anyone complaining.

regards, jim bean
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Re: Dan's Photoshop World Sessions
Posted by: "merlot3000"
Mon May 4, 2009 10:01 am (PDT)

Hi Dan,

It would be great if you provided content at www.lynda.com. For those of us that use many products for many purposes Lynda is invaluable and I would rather not pay for Lynda and Kelby. Right now there are a number of authors that are on both. Deke is one.

David Barrack
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Re: Dan's Photoshop World Sessions
Posted by: "Jeremy Schultz"
Mon May 4, 2009 11:09 am (PDT)

I like the idea of Adventures in Layer Masking‹my own experience is that judging which channels would make good masks and using them properly can be a difficult skill to master. Here?s some other ideas I?m just throwing out off the top of my head, good or bad:

� Color vs. Detail: Seems most everyone in your classes either nails the color or detail, but nailing both is much harder. Maybe there?s some things to look for to help people get closer to the best results overall without messing up one or the other.

� Retouching: Dan has always steered beginners clear of retouching and other specific tools to fix photos, since better results can be achieved with global adjustments like curves. However, in the advanced classes retouching was sometimes necessary. I would like to see how Dan approaches images that do require retouching (such as the mother-in-law photo we worked with in the advanced class) and how it should be used by advanced users.

� There Are Some Good Originals‹But They Can Be Better. Dan?s idea is to teach people that even the worst images can be made into good results, but also important is the fact that even good originals have room for improvement. Try a session that helps people develop a critical eye for images that seem perfect at first glance and describe tips and techniques used most often for making already-good images spectacular.

Jeremy Schultz
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Re: Dan's Photoshop World Sessions
Posted by: "David Lawrence"
Mon May 4, 2009 11:26 am (PDT)

David,

Deke isn't on Kelby Training. I wish he were.

Regards,

David Lawrence

PixelPurfect.com
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Re: Dan's Photoshop World Sessions
Posted by: "Dennis Dunbar"
Mon May 4, 2009 1:45 pm (PDT)

I like Laurentiu's suggestion, but would like to say that for many the role he describes is more technical than many of us deal with. As a retoucher with many years of experience my work has always been collaborating with the ad agency or the photographer creating the image. This usually includes color correction. compositing and retouching.

The role described below seems more technician oriented than artist oriented. It would be great to see both sides represented.

My 2 cents.

Dennis Dunbar
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Dan's Photoshop World Sessions
Posted by: Paco Marquez
Mon May 4, 2009 1:45 pm (PDT)

Hi to all,

Dan, I would like you to do more teaching on profesional CMYK workflow and solutions to the conversion from RGB to it.

Picture Postcard and the beauty of LAB is pretty but useless for a lot of us if it is not possible to translate the results to the printed page. We who earn our living shooting for CMYK output don't have many resources which will help us develop. You are a master at pre-press, but lately, I feel you are having so much success with RGB that you are avoiding CMYK completely.

Forget about fixing bad images. Start a class from high quality captures and follow through until delivered for various print media.

So that is my suggestion; which I would like to know if there are others who share it.

All the best!

Paco Marquez
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Re: Dan's Photoshop World Sessions
Posted by: "Andrew Webb"
Mon May 4, 2009 3:48 pm (PDT)

I'll second the vote for more prepress with good images. I almost never see junk. I'd love to see what your thinking is on a handful of good shots that are going to press.

And thanks for doing it at all. I've gotten a lot of milage out of your books!

/asw

Andrew Webb

Creative Director
Serious Retouching & Color
--------------------------------------
1601 Great Western Drive
Suite i-4 • Longmont • CO • 80501
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Re: Dan's Photoshop World Sessions
Posted by: "John Arnold"
Mon May 4, 2009 4:34 pm (PDT)

Dan,

In one of your recent posts you mentioned the experimentation that you have recently done with regard to working with flattened raw and JPEG files. It sounds like what you are discovering, when you have finally drawn some definitive conclusions about it, could really make for some great course content. Since so many of us are shooting in raw these days, I think there would be a lot of interest in what you have discovered with regard to the optimal way to work with raw files.

John Arnold
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Dan's Photoshop World Sessions
Posted by: "Raymond E. McKinley"
Mon May 4, 2009 7:09 pm (PDT)

Dan

My vote would be for some sessions on detail. This would incorporate the stuff on sharpening, using the overlay method to bring out highlight detail, and also using masks to allocate sharpening, and thus improve images.

Regards

Raymond E. McKinley
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Dan's Photoshop World Sessions
Posted by: "Scott Harrison"
Mon May 4, 2009 7:10 pm (PDT)

I go to photoshop world to attend Dan's advanced sessions, so keep them tough!

But for Kelby Video I would suggest a two or four hour session on basic per-channel curve writing with the info pallet. I am amazed by how many so-called experts are clueless to this. I blame the mass adoption of Lightroom and similar global correction software.

Thanks Dan for all your work!

Scott Harrison
harrysonpics.com
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Re: Dan's Photoshop World Sessions
Posted by: "davlime"
Tue May 5, 2009 2:25 am (PDT)

Dan,

IMHO people want to see from you, what they are unable to get anywhere else.

So my suggestion is to give the exactly that! Channel masking and USM. I know there is nothing else out there like your new techniques in these two fields!

All the best,

David Limentani
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Re: Dan's Photoshop World Sessions
Posted by: "Cathryn McLeod"
Tue May 5, 2009 8:01 am (PDT)

I would like to second Laurentiu's idea about A Work Day in the Life!

Cathryn McLeod
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Re: Dan's Photoshop World Sessions
Posted by: "Laurentiu Todie"
Tue May 5, 2009 1:52 pm (PDT)

Thanks for the thumbs up, but remember that that is just one possible scenario. Others were already suggested: retouchers who work directly with artists, photographers or agencies…

Laurentiu
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Re: Dan's Photoshop World Sessions
Posted by: "williamtheis"
Wed May 6, 2009 9:59 am (PDT)

These comments are directed at Kelby Training Videos and not necessarily Photoshop World:

Doing a video on Photo Retoucher/Pre Press Operator would certainly be entertaining (much of what Dan does is EXTREMELY entertaining!) but I'm not sure there's much training potential except for a few. It may be of historical significance to capture the antiquated way of dealing with film and pre-digital pre-press and then contrast it with the latest-greatest (which may be obsolete a half dozen years from now and itself be of some historical significance!). I could make a video of how a physicist (me) does experiments in a semiconductor research facility… interesting to some but you wouldn't learn much. Having flamed the idea, would I watch it? YES!!! But it wouldn't be my first choice

Regardless of how many curve writing sessions in existence, I would vote for it anyway. This would be great for beginners to give them perspective and as a refresher for those that aren't. Again emphasis on color/contrast (yes, I know it's in other videos but reinforcement is always good). Would like to reinforce identifying "friend" vs. "foe" channels for channel mixing. And then top it off with false profiles. Think of it as a skill set someone might want to have before they tackled the Picture Perfect Workflow….

Then there's the wild and wooly layers, blending modes, overlays and things that require you to get a spider sense of what to do. As Jeremy points out, some people nail color, others contrast. It would be instructive to point this out and show a couple of examples of blending images from a "representative" image from a class demonstrating this. A part of this is KNOWING what direction to take and when you get there (thank God you recommend keeping the conservative image in reserve) as you can easily wander off like I frequently do. I too work with very good originals but don't want to settle with better. Spectacular would do! (provided the image warranted it) So I would vote for the Layer Adventure video with Jeremy's suggestions which I also found useful in the class… now if we could just afford to convene about 4-6 folks each time we have to correct an image to blend the best from their efforts into the final image….

As part of this, the latest on sharpening can be explored but this is a moving target what with smart sharpen, smarter sharpen and the traditional masked USM techniques added to the complexity of WHEN it is best to perform the sharpening. So the video might be of experimental nature and need a refresh (appendix video later updating it and maybe the others?)….

Just my 2 cents

Bill Theis
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Re: Dan's Photoshop World Sessions
Posted by: Howard Smith
Wed May 6, 2009 9:59 am (PDT)

On May 04, 2009 Paco Marquez made the following comment in his post:

Start a class from high quality
captures and follow through until delivered for various print media.

This is an excellent suggestion that could be even better. There seems to be a real need for a video session devoted to this subject only, making this kind of practical information available to a much wider audience than a small class held a couple of times a year. There is a wealth of advice available on the subject, not to mention an almost endless number of opinions, but nothing that brings it all together for a start-to-finish discussion on what works and what should be avoided. Very few people outside of the printing industry are at all familiar with the setup and operation of a commercial offset press, for example. Among other things, one does not have to know what a "blanket" looks like before doing CMYK color corrections, but it would certainly make prepress work more meaningful if it was something we could visualize. For many of us the steps and equipment used in the printing process are nothing but words. Having watched many a press run myself, I have some vague familiarity with how the pressmen do their job, but not nearly enough knowledge of what is going on. The more we know, the easier it is to do a good job.

If there are others who share Paco's feelings, speak up.

Howard Smith
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Re: Dan's Photoshop World Sessions
Posted by: "John Arnold"
Wed May 6, 2009 4:01 pm (PDT)

David Limentani wrote:

So my suggestion is to give the exactly that! Channel masking and USM. I know there is nothing else out there like your new techniques in these two fields!

I would like to second the suggestion that a session be done on USM. I realize that sharpening probably doesn't translate well to a video format due to the subtle nature of the effects of employing different sharpening strategies, but I think it is one of the most important yet least understood aspects of post-processing.

John Arnold
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Dan's Photoshop World Sessions (a class(es) suggestion)
Posted by: "Eric Basir"
Thu May 7, 2009 10:39 am (PDT)

Regarding suggested classes for KelbyTraining (I am learning a lot with my subscription), I have one idea which could branch out to many:

Simply put, those old Makeready columns in Electronic Publishing would make excellent new courses. Dan, you could dig them up, find the original files (or newer, similar ones) and that?s your script (more or less). Of course, you would probably modify it with the new things you?ve learned as of late. Also, I see many of your lessons have 5-stars on them. So whatever you do‹even if it?s slightly repetitive‹will be of great interest and help Kelbytraining.com grow.

On a side-note, Kelbytraining.com is essentially it?s my ?poor man?s? version of Dan?s classes. Having never been able to afford the classes, it?s great to finally have a seat with the master. Although the other instructors are excellent teachers, it was the offering of your courses which drove me, as a retoucher, to make room for a subscription in my budget.

--
Eric C. M. Basir
Photo Grafix
http://www.photografix.pro
1-847-673-7043
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Re: Dan's Photoshop World Sessions
Posted by: "Ron Kelly"
Sat May 9, 2009 4:58 am (PDT)

Laurentiu

I'm not sure I get your first point, but I would definitely be interested in the video interviews.

You should produce them.

Ron Kelly
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Re: Dan's Photoshop World Sessions
Posted by: "Laurentiu Todie"
Sat May 9, 2009 9:39 am (PDT)

What is my "first point"? : )
This looks to me like a Dan production project because he's so connected with the industry that he could produce a variety of scenarios

yes, I could produce some, but so could the TV producers of "How It's Made", on the Discovery channel.

Laurentiu
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Dan's Decisions on PSW Sessions
Posted by: "Dan Margulis"j
Sun May 10, 2009 5:56 am (PDT)

I want to thank the list, and also the superadvanced group which replied to me offline, for the suggestions about what to do for PSW sessions and for videos. There were more good suggestions than I could accommodate.

I had a deadline this weekend to respond about Photoshop World topics, but as for videos I have a little more time, so I put that off. For Photoshop World, I proposed

For preconference session: Gave them a choice of an expanded version of Every File Has Ten Channels or an updated LAB in Depth. Our group made it very clear they want more of the channel blending stuff, but I'm not sure the PSW folk are ready to drop that LAB preconference session. We shall see.

For the two in-conference sessions I proposed, first, a picture postcard workflow, updated with all the things we've been discussing in the last few months. For the second, I stole an idea from one of the superadvanced respondents. Remember that I had suggested a session called "There Are No Bad Originals" where I would be showing a variety of techniques to fix things that appeared hopeless at first. The better suggestion came in as follows:

"1. There's no bad originals, with a twist. Start with some bad
originals, show the basics of what we're looking for, and then move
onto using the same principles to make *good* images look better. You
could add some drama by showing the good originals first."

So obvious, when you think of it, but I didn't, which goes to show what great resources I'm blessed with in all of you.

In a second post I will discuss videos and also some of the ideas that I will *not* be implementing. Thanks again to all who responded.

Dan Margulis
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Dan's Videos, Discussion of Suggestions
Posted by: "Dan Margulis"
Sun May 10, 2009 5:56 am (PDT)

This post discusses the possibilities for videos, and also the suggestions that I did not agree with. Remember please that I have not committed to doing any videos yet, it will be a matter of available time. First, let's talk about the ones that I'm considering.

1. LAYER MASKING/CHANNEL STRUCTURE/BLENDING
This is all really one big topic that can be packaged in a lot of ways. Everybody seems to want more of it, the following quote being typical:

"This is my own weakest area (but I AM working at it), and it's my impression that very few people (our group, and some of your other students excepted) even among so-called "high-end" users have experience with masking as you use and teach it. I also think you should do a Kelby video on this topic, and I will subscribe just to watch that one (probably a few times)."

I agree and if these videos go forward there will definitely be at least two on this topic.

2. THERE ARE NO BAD ORIGINALS.
In my companion post I described the new session I hope to prepare for Photoshop World. IF that works out well, I'll consider a video of it, and if it's a bust, there are other alternatives.

3. PREPARATION FOR CMYK.
The number of people wanting this session was surprising. People stated the request in different terms but it could probably all be summarized as a general desire for guidance for people who have an RGB orientation but need or wish to enter the CMYK world. The following states it reasonably well.

Most of the instructors out there are photographers, very
few know much about printing. I'd build on this advantage by digging
deeper into image prep for print. Perhaps some tricks on moving from a
large-gamut space to CMYK (or if not demonstrations as to why sRGB is
a better fit than something like ProPhoto for print work). A
discussion on what kinds of moves we want to look for post-conversion,
and a demonstration as to why it's good to leave yourself some
headroom in the black. Perhaps a demonstration of why SWOPV2 is a
problem in blues, and a quick comparison to a better ICC alternative
(this recommendation alone would be worth the price of admission for
some there, as SWOPV2 is still the default). This is related to the
first suggestion in this section, but tricks on getting good
conversions with saturated colors. A quick demo of sharpening the
black. Show how to get screen captures to reproduce well. Show how to
use a canned profiles color with a different black generation using
Color Settings and Color mode.

I agree with this to the extent that it implies a shortcoming in available information elsewhere. We are fortunate in today's world of having a lot of good Photoshop books and other material available. Sure, there's four times as much bad stuff as good, but if you know where to look there are more treasures than anybody can possibly dig for. OTOH, the information available in these books on how to prepare for CMYK is by and large garbage.

I used to do a similar session at Photoshop World, called "CMYK for Cowards". The title was misleading because it implied an easy session, which it wasn't. A lot of people were deliriously happy with the session because it was just what they needed to learn, and so the Kelby folk were more than happy to let me continue it. There was, however, a lot of negative response. In recent years PSW attendees have roughly broken into three equal parts; almost exclusively CMYK, almost exclusively RGB, and need both. So, this is a session that by its nature excludes about a third of attendees who are looking for the sort of stuff that I teach about Photoshop.

So I think this is not a good Photoshop World topic, but certainly should be considered for videos, where people have a lot of other topics to choose from if they don't care for this one.

Now, on to the "no thanks" categories.

4. OTHER PUBLISHERS
"It would be great if you provided content at www.lynda.com. For those of us that use many products for many purposes Lynda is invaluable and I would rather not pay for Lynda and Kelby.

At this stage of my career I am reluctant to get involved with people I don't know. Relationships with business partners are very important to me. I have a good relation with the Kelby folk. They know my foibles, I know theirs, and we get along well. Also, lynda.com is their direct competitor. My going there would be a direct slap in Kelby Training's face.

I've heard a lot of good things about lynda.com; they have approached me in the past, and I wish them the best. But if I decide to do more videos, the Kelby Training folk will have first call.

5. SHARPENING.
In reply to the several requests for something on sharpening, I decline for the following reasons:

A) Neither the projection systems at PSW nor a training video offers sufficient image quality for viewers to be able to evaluate what I'm doing.

B) Even if they did, sharpening is so subjective that some people would tune out in disgust because they would think I was oversharpening.

C) Although I could offer some guidance on general principles of sharpening that would be useful to almost everybody, it would not result in the immediate radical improvement in image quality that, say, the picture postcard workflow, or the use of LAB, does. There are several sharpening methods out there that give satisfactory results. Rather than try for the ultimate in sharpening people would be better advised to learn more about curves and channel blending. There's a bigger payoff to be had there.

6. CALIBRATION.
This falls into two categories:
A) "The one additional area that I would like to see covered any where, is the proper use of color spaces and profiles. I know I've mentioned this before but I can't overemphasize the turmoil, that the misunderstanding and misuse of this area of our industry causes me on a daily basis. Being in a position where I receive and send files to many different sources, I am constantly battling ignorance and misinformation regarding color space and profiles. If there was a definitive treatise on this subject I would refer to it daily."

B) "My idea for a seminar: Producing predictable color using only the monitor as your "output" device. I see a trend where magazine production is cutting costs wherever they can,
and lately that means that calibrated proofers and all the paper and ink they
require are being eliminated from the budget. For us retouchers, the concepts
of color spaces, output profiles, GCR, monitor calibration, what the numbers/ratios
of color mean, and, ultimately, having some markers about how to judge
if the color onscreen will be close to how the image prints on press.
I am currently working where that's the model, and it's a bit nerve wracking."

As for the first, I'm sympathetic to the service provider who requests it and agree that it makes his life difficult. But people who are in his position (many sources, many outputs) are not that common, so I think it is too limiting for a video. Also, it would become obsolete fairly quickly.

With respect to the second something could certainly be done but it would be like coming out in favor of disenfranchising women or taxing lame jokes. More heat would be generated than light.

7. ARTIFICIAL FLATTENING OF IMAGES
"In one of your recent posts you mentioned the experimentation that you have recently done with regard to working with flattened raw and JPEG files. It sounds like what you are discovering, when you have finally drawn some definitive conclusions about it, could really make for some great course content. Since so many of us are shooting in raw these days, I think there would be a lot of interest in what you have discovered with regard to the optimal way to work with raw files."

I will certainly do something like this when I feel ready, but that may be a long time. Flattening an image in order to improve it is counterintuitive and probably dangerous if not done carefully. So I don't want to go recommending it unless I have good safeguards and also guidelines on when it can be used.

At Photoshop World Boston I showed some of the impressive results and explained the theoretical reasons why it *might* work, but stressed that I wasn't in a position to make a general recommendation yet. No doubt I'll have something more specific in Photoshop World Las Vegas, but in terms of videos in 2009 I doubt there's much hope.

My thanks again to all those offering suggestions, whether I agree with them or not.

Dan Margulis