Untitled Document

Dan Margulis Applied Color Theory

Best Colorspace for PDF

Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 14:24:07 -0300

From: "Ellie Kennard"

Subject: Colour space for pdf images?

I am making a pdf document which is to be on a CDROM. It is images of paintings, and will be opened on all different OS's and machines/monitors.

I had thought to limit these images to 500px largest dimension, to allow for the smaller monitors and lower resolutions still out there, and had thought of using the sRGB colour space, to allow for all the variations.

Has anyone any other colour space suggestions for this output?

Many thanks,

Ellie

Ellie Kennard

Innovative Imaging Studio

http://www.iiStudio.com

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Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 15:01:10 -0500

From: "Maris V. Lidaka Sr."

Subject: Re: Colour space for pdf images?

sRGB sounds fine for your purposes. But I would suggest 640ppi for the largest dimension, and why not TIFF instead of PDF?

Maris

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Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 15:49:41 -0400

From: "Derek Cooper"

Subject: RE: Colour space for pdf images?

Hi Ellie,

sRGB is definitely the way to go, from my experience. Anything else will be a crap shoot in terms of what you'll get on the viewers' monitors. Heck, it's already a crap shoot given the un-controlled environment of non-calibrated monitors out there.

Cheers,

Derek Cooper

www.derekcooper.com

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Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 19:16:02 -0300 (ADT)

From: "Ellie Kennard"

Subject: Re: Colour space for pdf images?

Hi Maris,

Thanks for the input. I should explain the project a bit more:

This is a CDROM to go in the back of a catalogue for an art exhibition. Only a few of the artworks are reproduced in the catalogue in hard copy. The rest will be able to be viewed on the CDROM.

I had thought of making up a .pdf document (in Acrobat) so that the images will not so easily be available for printing (except by screenshots, I suppose). With the pdf document, I can have the index down the side so that the images are easily accessible. I could have the images in the document in TIFF format placed in the pages. Is there a particular reason for the 640 ppi? I am thinking that the smaller monitors with low resolution will only have about 500 px available between the top and bottom, for images that are bigger length than width. I had thought to keep them more or less uniform in that.

I guess that large image size, for quality, gives nothing much on a 72ppi monitor anyway, so maybe jpegs would be fine?

What do you think?

Best regards,

Ellie Kennard

Innovative Imaging Studio

http://www.iiStudio.com

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Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 03:26:09 -0700

From: Rick Gordon

Subject: Re: Colour space for pdf images?

Another consideration that might tip the scales in favor of a PDF is that the embedded profile will be honored in Acrobat Reader (though I'm not sure about OS X's Preview application), or the standard default for an untagged file would be sRGB, while with a TIFF or JPEG, it would be a crap-shoot how the file is color-managed, depending on the program, platform, and environment.

Rick Gordon

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RICK GORDON

EMERALD VALLEY GRAPHICS AND CONSULTING

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WWW: http://www.shelterpub.com

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Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 09:39:17 -0500

From: "Maris V. Lidaka Sr."

Subject: Re: Colour space for pdf images?

The PDF sounds fine, with the index. I like it.

500 ppi vs. 640 ppi is up to you - whichever looks better to you (and is more secure from web-theft). JPEGs would be fine as well. I think most monitors today will show a 640 ppi image without problem.

Maris

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Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 07:38:39 -0600

From: "Les De Moss"

Subject: Re: Colour space for pdf images?

Ellie-

Another option is an HTML document. With an autorun file placed on the CD, it would automatically run and open and would not require Acrobat reader on the client computer. Additionally, images of two different screen resolutions could be used. An index, including thumbnail images, provides an easy way to visually navigate through the catalog.

A modestly compressed jpg (8-12) file, would be virtually indistinguishable from a more weighty tiff file on a monitor. Also, while a 500px size would accommodate any monitor, the percentage of 480x640 users is very low these days. I think you'd be safe with a design for a minimum size of 600x800.

I doubt that reproduction would be a serious concern from such small files, however, there are services that provide digital watermarking and registration if this is a real concern.

Les De Moss

DigiGraphics LLC

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Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 08:58:26 -0300 (ADT)

From: "Ellie Kennard"

Subject: RE: Colour space for pdf images?

Thanks Derek,

It seems that my gut feeling is correct, from the two replies so far.

I know the terrible mess that will be seen on some monitors, if only from viewing them on my own (5 year old) IBM monitor used for bookkeeping. I hate to look at the images on that, but I steel myself to do so. Even so, I can't correct the images for that display, as I understand that most uncalibrated new monitors are default set at 9000k. What a contrast that will be to the yellowed display on my old IBM.

I guess I will just do the best I can. In any case, no one will be holding their monitor with the images on them while they are viewing the exhibition, to compare the colour. Phew!

Best Regards,

Ellie Kennard

Innovative Imaging Studio

http://www.iiStudio.com

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Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 11:40:30 -0400

From: Dolores Kaufman

Subject: Re: Colour space for pdf images?

Hi Ellie,

Derek is right about it being a "crap shoot" out there. There are a couple of moves, however, that you might want to consider. If you have room on the CD, you might want to prepare two folders, one labeled FOR PC USERS, the other FOR MAC USERS. If that is not possible then you might add a Read Me note to the effect that the images are in the sRGB color space. That will give the knowedgeable Mac users the opportunity to change their working space, if they so desire, to sRGB in order to properly view the images. Even if they are lazy types you will at least be alerting them to the fact that the tonal quality they are viewing is not what was intended.

Dolores

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From: Derek Cooper

Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 15:49:41 -0400

Subject: RE: [colortheory] Colour space for pdf images?

Hi Ellie,

Cheers,

Derek Cooper

www.derekcooper.co

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Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 12:25:47 -0400

From: Henry Davis

Subject: Re: Colour space for pdf images?

Pixel dimension is always confusing because with each version of each program being used (whether it's Acrobat or a browser or other) the portion of the display left over for the actual content varies. I would experiment with the last couple of versions of Reader for PDFs to make sure that the images fit as planned, with the index expanded.

Henry Davis

Maris V. Lidaka Sr. wrote:

500 ppi vs. 640 ppi is up to you - whichever looks better to you (and is

more secure from web-theft). JPEGs would be fine as well. I think most

monitors today will show a 640 ppi image without problem.

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Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:53:09 -0600

From: Chris Murphy

Subject: Re: Colour space for pdf images?

On Friday, September 5, 2003, at 04:26 AM, Rick Gordon wrote:

Another consideration that might tip the scales in favor of a PDF is

that the embedded profile will be honored in Acrobat Reader (though

I'm not sure about OS X's Preview application),

In fact it's not possible to override the embedded profile in Acrobat either. So regardless of settings, at least Acrobat and Preview won't sabotage the preview of the file. However, it is possible that the display profile set in the system could be wrong and then the preview would be wrong.

Chris Murphy

Color Remedies (TM)

www.colorremedies.com/realworldcolor

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Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 21:54:09 -0300 (ADT)

From: Ellie Kennard

Subject: Re: Colour space for pdf images?

Now I have decided instead to make this document/CD ROM in html instead, so the whole pdf thing is not any longer an issue. However it is good to know these things for future projects in any case.

Many thanks for the assistance.

Regards,

Ellie Kennard

Innovative Imaging Studio

http://www.iiStudio.com

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Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:57:57 -0600

From: Chris Murphy

Subject: Re: Colour space for pdf images?

On Friday, September 5, 2003, at 09:40 AM, Dolores Kaufman wrote:

Derek is right about it being a "crap shoot" out there. There are a couple

of moves, however, that you might want to consider. If you have room on the

CD, you might want to prepare two folders, one labeled FOR PC USERS, the

other FOR MAC USERS.

This is really not necessary so long as the sRGB profile is embedded in the PDF. Acrobat 5 and 6 and Preview on OS X will use that profile as source, and convert to Monitor RGB as set in Displays. Even in a non-calibrated situation, the system gets approximate display behavior and gamma, and will compensate for the difference between sRGB and a default display condition. This happens automatically with all OS 9 and higher systems. On Windows it's another story, but even if it were to ignore the sRGB profile, Windows displays in an uncalibrated condition are approximate (on average) to sRGB anyway.

If that is not possible then you might add a Read Me

note to the effect that the images are in the sRGB color space. That will

give the knowedgeable Mac users the opportunity to change their working

space, if they so desire, to sRGB in order to properly view the images.

For PDF, it's not necessary to change the working space. So long as the PDF is tagged with sRGB, Acrobat and Preview will always use the embedded profile instead of the Working Space profile. Working Space profiles in Acrobat are only used for untagged objects.

Chris Murphy

Color Remedies (TM)

www.colorremedies.com/realworldcolor

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