Adobe Photoshop Training with Dan Margulis

Hello Group,

First Posting from Moi!-- I have a dilemma I did a Digital shoot and supplied the Prepress House, as asked RGB tif files. They were shot RAW with WB aligned and corrected in CS.

The Client just rung me a stated that the "Epson " scatter proofs have flat grey skins greenish tinge and frankly awful!. I in my judgement gave accurate and clean 1Ds Mk11 files- The Client has demanded I travel to the Prepresshouse to sort out the "mess" ( 4hours flight time from here!).

According to the Prepress Mg my files have too much black dot-and proofwashed out?? and over the Ink amount for the Web offset print they were shot for If I am to save this job how would i approach correcting this? I leave on Tues to "sit" with the prepress guys--where should I start -any help would be appreciated.

With grateful thanks

Des Williams

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Assuming you are working on a calibrated system and your files came from raw converter to a 'reasonable' working space (adobe 1998, s-rgb) and they look fine on your calibrated monitor it should be enough to convert from your rgb working space to the presshouse prefered cmyk profile.

I use to convert my files to s-rgb and print some of them on Fuji Frontier (glossy) 8x10 inches, so my client can easily understand what's inside the cd he's paying for.

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Hello Fernando,

Yes Formac 2010 Plat/ Optix Calib /G5/ 95 Mb16bit FFrame/RGB 1998 WB corrected. They are doing the "Conversion" to CMYK-someone suggested they could be stripping out my embedded profile first? Talking around the various Forums this seems to be an ongoing locking of Horns --Dig Photog> PrePress house> Client! Had a terrific RGB to CMYK PDF from Annette Murray ALL Digital Snappers should load it in their Bookmarks kudos to Annette for that!

Thank you all

Des Williams

Great Barrier Reef Aust

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are you saying the prepress guys took your RGB files into CMYK and there is a problem?

If yes, why not ask for the press guys to upload one of the 'worst' and take a look at their version.. asking how they made the jump to cmyk? if your files were reasonable, w/without a calibrated monitor.. "too much black dot?" whatever that means and how did the green get in there/your files hopefully don't indicate (info palette) ..? good luck (you may need it).. regards, jim bean (and if an epson inkjet proof..their printer could easily have a clogged head?)

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I don't suppose you could point us in the direction of that PDF, could you? I googled Annette Murray but I didn't come up with the PDF.

Thanks,

Alastair.

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Des writes:

This is an excellent description of the phenomenon that occurs when someone makes the mistake of handing off an Adobe RGB file to a stranger without verifying that the stranger understands what Adobe RGB is.

Since you handed in RGB files there's no way you are responsible for being over the ink limit. Whoever separated your files into CMYK is the guilty party on that score. As for too much black ink, in principle that's a separation problem too but they may be trying to say that your files are too neutral, not colorful enough. That might account for "too much black."

To save yourself a flight, you might try calling the folks up and asking, as a personal favor, because somebody told you this and it sounds crazy to you but you're really desperate, and you know that they are the experts and all that, but if they wouldn't mind just humoring you: open up the original RGB file and go Image: Mode>Assign Profile>Adobe RGB, and THEN take it into CMYK.

Dan Margulis

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Dear Dan,

Your words of wisdom speak loud and true!-- but have we not, with this Digital capture age bred an animosity that seems to have sprung up between the Photographer/Prepress Houses and brings all of us into conflict with a poor totally flumoxed Client whom unwittingly has to listen to various types of "Spin Doctoring" from all sides as to why their seemingly fundamental Ad campaign shoot becomes a production crew slanging match! I am well aware of what has happened here-and believe me I followed correct procedure- contacting the head honcho of the Prep house and giving exactly as he asked --RGB files- slight USM_with Contrast. I like a Lamb to the slaughter have agreed to go to the lion's den next Tuesday and try(?) to sort out this mess. If they state"we have done the assign/profile/etc" as you wrote-- am I next for the chop?

Very Grateful for your time to reply and congrats on an excellent forum-and I promise I'll visit India one day!

Kind Regards,

Des Williams

Great Barrier Reef Aust

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Sounds like the Unlucky Expert Rides Again.

Go here for some info on how the unlucky get that way

http: //ep.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section= Archives&Subsection=Display&ARTICLE_ID=176745&KEYWORD= DAn%20MArgulis

http: //ep.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section= Archives&Subsection=Display&ARTICLE_ID=171642&KEYWORD= DAn%20MArgulis

You will need to register.

John

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Another thing that was not discussed is the fact that one cannot easily take a good RGB image and successfully print it out on an Epson printer (probably not on any printer) without either using an appropriate profile (just choosing a paper manufacturer's profile or a canned Epson printer profile won't do the job) or without making appropriate adjustments that will assure that the printed output comes as close as practical to the monitor image. Whoever is doing the printing for your client must be an amateur, or the cause of the greenish-gray tinge would not have been a surprise either to the print technician or to the client. That's an inescapable fact of life with Epson pigments. It's not an insurmountable problem, but blaming you for their printer's lack of experience will not make it go away. My own first attempts (followed by many other memorable disasters) produced really bad results from very good image files until I realized that this is not a business for those who have been spoiled by the pretty pictures they get by pushing a few buttons on their local drugstore's digital printer. Since your client obviously is ignorant of this, I can understand their horror at seeing such images, but it's hardly your fault. I wonder if they even did the Epson proofs from their CMYK conversion? Yet another potential problem source if they did.

Of course regardless of who's at fault, you're not going to be able to convince such a client with logic. As others have pointed out in previous posts, bad things can happen when CMYK conversions are not done properly. But from what you've said, your client is not interested in knowing that because he is convinced that everything's your fault. Dan's approach is your best hope. If psychology doesn't prevail where logic fails, do you really want a client like this one? If you do, you're going to need to be well armed with educational materials when you go to the meeting because you're going to have to teach them how to make proofs on an Epson printer and how to make separations. Good luck on convincing them that they need your help instead of your apologies.

Howard Smith

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Link to download for Annette Murray's RGB to CMYK pdf for prepress technicians.

http://homepage.mac.com/flamingoo/FileSharing28.html

Annette Raimondi Murray

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Des writes,

It's not the digital capture as such but rather that the photographer now has many more responsibilities than was the case ten years ago. Those who have learned what they need to rarely have bad relations with printers and prepress houses.

Correct. Some clients actually understand what goes on but most don't, so it becomes a matter of who tells the most convincing fairy tale. Printers are very experienced at blaming photographers for all manner of bad printing, so they have the advantage. However, I have seen many occasions where photographers submitted originals with dreadful color casts and without a proper highlight and shadow, and successfully blamed the printer's color management.

Since it's unpredictable which side is going to be blamed, and innocent parties can lose clients as a result, it's probably better for each side to learn a little more about the customary practices of the other.

No, you gave him an *Adobe* RGB file without checking first that he knew what that meant. Many, many users get burnt this way, and there have been several acrimonious threads on this list about it, see, e.g.

http: //www.ledet.com/margulis/ACT_postings/DailyLife/Daily.htm

In one of the threads, a year and a half ago, I wrote:

"This scenario has played itself out several times on this list and dozens on others. The culprit is invariably Adobe RGB. I don't favor that RGB definition anyway, but that's beside the point. Anyone who uses Adobe RGB absolutely has to take the responsibility to make sure that the next person knows, because if the next person doesn't know and doesn't take action it will be a flat, washed-out disaster."

Dan Margulis

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