Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 05:01:53 -0000
From: John Castronovo
Subject: newsprint profile
I'd like to know if anyone has access to a profile that will yield a decent CMYK conversion for reproduction on newsprint. Any advice in this endeavor would be appreciated.John Castronovo
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 06:47:07 -0600
From: Andrew Rodney
Subject: Re: newsprint profile
John Castronovo wrote:> I'd like to know if anyone has acces to a profile that will yield a
> decent CMYK conversion for reproduction on newsprint. Any advice in
> this endeavor would be appreciated.I1ve built a number of profiles for newspapers (custom profiles where the newspaper ran my target on an actual run). I have no idea if any such profiles would work in any other situation. I1d expect a custom profile would be the way to go.
Andrew Rodney
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 10:47:17 -0400
From: Christine Holzmann
Subject: Re: newsprint profile
UCR
Black Ink Limit: 80%
Total Ink Limit: 260% (From 240% to 260% is a good range)
Dot Gain: 34% (Set it as 34% using the standard setting, then go into the dot gain curve settings and set it at the 50% mark with the following settings: Cyan 84%, Magenta 84%, Yellow 82%, Black 88%.)Hope this helps!!
Best regards,
Crissi
_______________________________
DESIGN EDITOR @ The Citizen News
http://www.thecitizennews.comDIGITAL/GRAPHIC ARTIST
http://www.thecrissigallery.com
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:44:15 -0600
From: Rob Perry
Subject: Re: newsprint profile
As Andrew says, a custom profile would be the way to go. We print on an older Goss Urbanite and use the following profile. However, each press is different, of course.With Ink Colors: SWOP Newsprint.
245% Total Ink Limit 100% Black Ink Limit w/Med. GCR
32% Dot Gain
5/65 C
2/50 M
2/50 Y
0/80 KRob Perry
Western Producer
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:16:21 +0200
From: Johan Leide, Teknik i Media
Subject: Re: newsprint profile
JohnIn Europe there are several initiatives to have one national profile. The newspaper associations pushes for one Official profile and thereby ensuring that the presses are able to be run in a correct way. When working for Ifra ( http://www.ifra.com) I was involved in the German Quizproject. We printed two different IT 8 on 40 presses (27 newspapers).
The profiles was developed as a national project run jointly by Ifra and ZMG - the marketing organisation of Germany.
We gathered 27 newspapers for one week - gave a training This included:
ISO 12647-3 specification
Greybalance printing
Measurement procedures
Calibrating Film vs CTP
Conducting a press-run for colour managementWe had a full setup of presses, double Polaris, film image setters, a nice colour press and press team to help us to do all the tutoring into live tests.
After the workshop week the newspapers signed a contract to "print by the numbers" and to print to GREYBALANCE 30,22,22
After approximately 3 months we had samples from almost 40 different presses and all kinds of types of output:
CTP (Various brands)
Film (Neg/Pos)
OPC
100 as well as 85 lpi-Each press was measured three to four times with either a spectroscan or a Xrite Spectrofiler
-All of the data was sorted into families
- we ran statistics on the variation (please see attached PDF)1) As some bad copies was sorted out we made a mean profile
2) The profile was tested and report came back stating it produced too dark images
3) The profiles was edited with LinoColour - somewhat lighter, more contrast
4) Black and white profile was created
So now you see where we are. I beleive no other profile around has ever been so thoroughly and impericaly produced and tested!
The profile is dead on to the SNAP/ISO 12647-3 values for:
1) CMYKWRGB lab values
2) Grey balance
3) Controlled Output for film and CTPWe hope you can make full use of this profile
I have had tested it under controlled conditions in the following places:
The New York Times, USA
Hindustan Times, India
The Sydney Morning Herald, Australia
Dagens Nyheter, Sweden
Morgonbladid, Iceland
Darmstadter Echo, Germany
Sydsvenska Dagbladet, Sweden
VLT, Sweden
Helinki Sanomat, FinlandIn all places it ran as good or better than the inhouse profiles or setup. Beleive me this is a profile that works just fine in almost all places. It is quite colourful and has a slight contrast enhancement.
My normal way of working is: Make nice looking RGB, Set size and Res, Sharpen, RGB-->ICC-->CMYK, Save the file, Print, SMILE.
you can download the Ifra profile from http://www.ifra.com/ click on the Black and white logo "Quiz" in the bottom left corner. There is a English version too.
Good luck and Cheers
Johan
--
-------------------
Johan Leide
Teknik i Media Sverige AB (publ)
Address: Södra Förstadsgatan 2, 211 43 Malmö, Sweden
Tel: Mobile +46 704 20 57 21
Tel: direct +46 40 601 57 21, Operator +46 40 601 57 00
Fax: +46 40 601 57 99
http://www.tim.se
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 21:35:34 EDT
From: Dan Margulis
Subject: Re: newsprint profile
Johan writes,>>In Europe there are several initiative to have one national profile. The newspaper associations pushes for one Official profile and thereby ensuring that the presses are able to be run in a correct way.>>
While this is a commendable initiative, there are several items in Johan's post that are food for thought for some of the photographers who recently complained about the lack of color management support from commercial printers.
>>1) As some bad copies was sorted out we made a mean profile>>
Newspaper printing is *far* more variable than commercial printing. This one profile is going to cover a huge variety of real-world conditions. And yet it's a viable way of doing things. Sure, it would be nice if we always knew more about the actual printing conditions. But, in preparing for press, close is good enough. That a commercial printer doesn't give out much information about printing conditions is no excuse for poor imagery.
>>2) The profile was tested and report came back stating it produced too dark images>>
This, also, is the way things work in the real world. Despite a tremendous number of machine measurements, human intervention is inevitable.
>>3) The profiles was edited with LinoColour - somewhat lighter, more contrast>>
And, because this is such a common tactic, it must be pointed out that "more contrast" is impossible. Assuming that highlight and shadow don't change, a profile can't add contrast--it can only reallocate it. What Johan almost certainly means is that contrast was added *to the quartertones and midtones*, which is where indeed most images need more contrast. But to finance this move, the profile needs to shortchange highlights, three-quartertones, shadows, or, probably , all three.
Johan's profile may be the best for the majority of images, but it won't be the best if your image happens to feature critical highlight or shadow detail. If you want optimal quality in such cases, you have to be willing tointervene, preferably after the separation. If you don't do so, and the results are disappointing, don't blame color management.
Dan Margulis
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 20:20:53 +1000
From: Stephen Marsh
Subject: Re: newsprint profile
Firstly, Johan - thank you for pointing the list to the various newsprint
profiles and for your thoughts and time.Dan Margulis makes some very good points on the newsprint profile info supplied by Johan Leide below, which I can add some comments too. I have been looking for a better newsprint profile than the Kodak news proofer profile that I had, but with the move to full ICC usage Adobe did not supply a newsprint profile. In some cases the perceptual render for a full profile may offer some alternatives (more so for newsprints lower gamut) over the standard relcol transform as found in the built in custom CMYK 'lite' profile, which most users have separated with due to having nothing better. The really good thing about the newsprint custom CMYK settings is that you can adjust for dot gain, which for newsprint is a must (usually increasing over the default 30% or making separate dot gain curves). I do not have to do newsprint seps anymore - but you never know when a random bureau job may request these seps (as well as in-house prepress we offer bureau services).
Johan writes:
> >>In Europe there are several initiative to have one national profile. The
> newspaper associations pushes for one Official profile and thereby ensuring
> that the presses are able to be run in a correct way.>>Dan replies:
> While this is a commendable initiative, there are several items in Johan's
> post that are food for thought for some of the photographers who recently
> complained about the lack of color management support from commercial
> printers.Dan makes a very good point here, some users will blindly trust the profile, so it better be very good. For newsprint dot gain and black generation are the two major concerns. More on this below.
> >>1) As some bad copies was sorted out we made a mean profile>>
If the profile is an average - then I would hope that my conditions are close to the average. My experience tells me that the profiles being discussed here are a bit different to my conditions, they produce separations which are too dark (not enough dot gain).
> >>2) The profile was tested and report came back stating it produced too dark
> images>>> This, also, is the way things work in the real world. Despite a tremendous
> number of machine measurements, human intervention is inevitable.This is no shock to me. The profiles indicate an approx DG value of 25% which might be good for flatsheet on much better stock than newsprint. IMHO this profile is still too dark for common newsprint - or at least newsprint conditions that I have faced at the major news printers in Sydney.
Initial inspection of the profile using Photoshop methods did not offer any surprises - 235% TIL, 80% K. The K generation appears to be close to the custom CMYK 'SWOP Newsprint' with a GCR separation using HEAVY black generation, with a visual appearance near 20% dot gain. Dot gain appeared to be similar to 25% in custom CMYK or greyscale/spot terms when going by the numbers.
Evaluation of the profiles dot gain using abscol measurements and the dot gain calculator spreadsheet from Bruce J Lindbloom's site indicated that dot gain was approx 21c 20m 22y 24k.
So we have heavy GCR K generation with approx 25% dot gain for newsprint...that seems to indicate mud to me (for my conditions).
> And, because this is such a common tactic, it must be pointed out that "more
> contrast" is impossible. Assuming that highlight and shadow don't change, a
> profile can't add contrast--it can only reallocate it. What Johan almost
> certainly means is that contrast was added *to the quartertones and
> midtones*, which is where indeed most images need more contrast. But to
> finance this move, the profile needs to shortchange highlights,
> three-quartertones, shadows, or, probably , all three.And now the real fun begins! I have never measured or made a profile, so I only have a basic and slightly confused understanding of the process...but this profile is similar in some behaviour to the one made by the previous separator/retoucher at my company for our magazine conditions. There is some really special 'secret sauce' being applied here when you start looking at Relative Colorimetric vs. Perceptual rendering when using this profile.
I always start with relcol tests. For images that are in gamut and are not too challenging for the news profile sep, there is no/little visual monitor appearance change when the profile is previewed or softproofed using Relative Colorimetric intent. This is usually considered a good thing, well by me anyway.
BPC is always 'fun' - some profiles produce junk without Black Point Compensation, which means that only Adobe products with BPC features can use relcol with any real success. This profile likes BPC, which is a good thing for Photoshop. So using RelCol with BPC is the best way to get a 'colorimetric close' separation. On the other hand, some CMYK profiles do not like BPC...so as always it pays to see how perceptual or relcol with/without BPC looks (visually and by the numbers).
Perceptual intent for this profile is quite different. There is more going on than just gamut compression to the destination space - as mentioned by Johan there is some 'tweaking' going on here, as well as the profile editors proprietary method of gamut mapping/compression. Unlike some other profiles, Perceptual produces a drastically different image to the original for this colour newsprint profile. Granted that newsprint repro is not likely to be even close to the original, but in other profiles the perceptual render simply produces a slightly duller image, rather than a severe departure from the original intent (this departure is usually done as a traditional post separation editing move, with the separation attempting to honour the original as much as possible).
So as Johan mentions and Dan expands upon - the perceptual intent for this profile is like adding a 'large' contrast boost, but I don't think the curve is the same as for dot gain.
Example, TIL break-up of 235%:
Relative Colorimetric - 63/50/42/80
Perceptual - 51/47/46/91Same profile, different render intents.
I have mixed feelings on this extreme tweaking of the Perceptual intent and personally prefer to make the decision to depart from the original myself - rather than the profile making a fixed choice for me, but with the 'true' relcol option and the 'artistic' perceptual - this profile offers Photoshop users good options...apart from the dot gain being too low.
I wonder if regenerating the profile with say 35-40% dot gain instead of the 'artistic' contrast edit would produce better results in keeping the general feel of the original. Dont hack it with a curve, get the dot gain right. Just a thought...
> Johan's profile may be the best for the majority of images, but it won't be
> the best if your image happens to feature critical highlight or shadow
> detail. If you want optimal quality in such cases, you have to be wiling
> tointervene, preferably after the separation. If you don't do so, and the
> results are disappointing, don't blame color management.Wise words indeed. Custom CMYK and hand edits still seem to be the best bet in this case.
Keep in mind that I have no actual printed results to compare things with - so I could be totally wrong on the dot gain and or others aspects. This is just the result of playing in Photoshop for half an hour or so.
But hard earned experience tells me that if I simply handed a separation over as a raw RGB > CMYK with no post separation edits and the profile only had 25% dot gain...then I would expect to get mud - Sydney mud. Just as Australian powder snow (wet concrete) is different from Euro powder, dot gain must be really different too.
Sincerely,
Stephen Marsh
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 08:43:58 -0400
From: Dan Remaley
Subject: RE: Re: newsprint profile / dot gain
Hi Stephen, group, according to SNAP (Specs. for Newsprint Advertising Production).
Based on 100 line screen-the quartertone and midtone gain for all colors is 32%.the three quartertone gain is 20%
Contact WPA at 703.519.8156 for more info
or www.printing.orgDan Remaley / GATF
Process Control Tech.
412.741.6860x450
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 08:50:27 -0600
From: Chris Murphy
Subject: Re: Re: newsprint profile / dot gain
On Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 06:43 AM, Remaley, Dan wrote:> Hi Stephen, group, according to SNAP (Specs. for Newsprint Advertising
> Production).
> Based on 100 line screen-
> the quartertone and midtone gain for all colors is 32%.
> the three quartertone gain is 20%I thought SNAP was Specifications for Non-Heatset Advertising Printing. What I have may be outdated, but it's specifying 85lpi, and dot gain of 32K, 30C, 30M, 28Y. This is from 2 years ago.
Chris Murphy
Color Remedies (tm)
Boulder, CO
303-415-9932
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 11:33:42 EDT
From: Dan Margulis
Subject: Re: newsprint profile / dot gain
Chris Murphy writes,>>I thought SNAP was Specifications for Non-Heatset Advertising Printing. >>
According to the 1/00 manual, it stands for "Specifications for Newsprint Advertising Production."
Dan Margulis
Adobe Photoshop training classes are taught in the US by Sterling Ledet & Associates, Inc.