Dan Margulis Applied Color Theory
Grayscale Images to Newsprint CMYK
Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 23:12:46 -0000
From: "imntcrzy"
Subject: B&W images printed to newsprint CMYK
better or grayscale?
We are printing black and white images on newsprint and
have run into a question of what would yield better results and what the
pro's and con's of printing these images as CMYK or grayscale?
On one hand I feel that grayscale printing would
minimize and problems that may occur in our less than perfect printing
conditions, i.e color shift, registration problems, et cetera.
However on the other hand we are being told that CMYK black and white
images would produce richer blacks and better tonal variation.
Any insight or opinions on printing CMYK or grayscale
would be greatly appreciated.
Albert Lee
________________________________________________________________________
Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 20:19:55 -0400
From: "Gene Palmiter"
Subject: Re: B&W images printed to newsprint CMYK
better or grayscale?
Both views are correct. The deciding factor is the
ability of the press to hold registration. If your color images are mostly
in register then printing your BW in CMYK will give you rich blacks.
Another possibility, one that I use because my boss always goes with the
cheapest printer, is to add richness with duotones. Make them in Photoshop
and save as .EPS
________________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:48:57 -0400
From: Brian Pylant
Subject: RE: B&W images printed to newsprint CMYK
better or grayscale?
It's not only about registration, it's also about ink
balance on press (IMO even more important than registration in regards to
avoiding a color shift). If the pressman inadvertently runs the cyan a bit
heavy then the image will take on a decidedly blue cast, for example, and
of course similar casts are introduced if the magenta or yellow is run
heavy, or if the black is run light.
Getting a rich-but-neutral result will require proper
ink management on press, which of course is the pressman's responsiblity
but you will often see it lean one way or the other, especially if they're
adjusting to match the colors to the more predominant/important areas of
the proofs. In theory you would think that simply by running all four inks
at their proper levels that you would get consistent, even results and
neutral CMYK greys but in the real world that is rarely the case as there
are so many other factors for the pressman to consider.
I will usually set my images up to print as rich
neutrals as I feel the benefits (richness and depth of tone) outweigh the
possible negatives, except in those cases where the image absolutely cannot
color shift even the slightest amount, in which case I use straight
greyscale. I do no newsprint work, however, so I do not know what other
factors that brings to the issue - from my limited knowledge I think I'd be
more inclined to just go with greyscale on newsprint - will the added
richness or depth of these images even be apparent on newsprint stock?
BRIAN PYLANT
Manager, Electronic Prepress
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
::::::::::::::::::::::::
Disc Makers
7905 North Route 130 * Pennsauken NJ * 08110-1402
Toll free: 1-800-468-9353 ext. 5539
________________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:51:47 -0400
From: "Dan Remaley"
Subject: RE: B&W images printed to newsprint CMYK
better or grayscale?
With High GCR regester is less important because the
detail is held in the Black color only. Newprint has a wide standard
deviation and some amout of GCR should be used all the time. For 4/color
black & White Maximum GCR isd a must.
(see my articles at <www.newsandtech.com>)
Dan
Dan Remaley PIA/GATF
Process Control Manager
412.2591814
________________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:54:18 -0500
From: RJay Hansen
Subject: Re: B&W images printed to newsprint CMYK
better or grayscale?
Brian is right, in that ink balance/color shift is
going to be more of a problem than registration is. If something's running
on newsprint, it's a fairly safe bet that it's running in some sort of
publication. The other content on the side of the web your image(s) are on
will affect the ink balance (possibly quite significantly).
Printing b/w cmyk will result in much richer images
(even on newsprint) but I would say you shouldn't do it unless you can live
with color casts as that is a much more likely result than having a neutral
image maintained throughout the press run.
RJay
________________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 11:28:04 -0400
From: "Gene Palmiter"
Subject: Re: B&W images printed to newsprint CMYK
better or grayscale?
I prepare work for almost only low-end newsprint. But,
its an arts and culture monthy. We have a lot of images. I take a lot of
them and do the prep so I have a lot of control there. But, once it leaves
my hands I have no control at all. I have to trust the press operator to do
the best job they can. Ink ballance will wander a bit through the run. We
take a few copies from varius batches to see how it looks...but we can't
control it...we can only "tsk".
The viewer will only see a few copies, and those that
they see are packaged with others printed at the same time. The reader
won't see any differences. Registration is obvious to anyone with eyes and
it effects a few hundred or several hundred copies depending on how quickly
it is fixed. Its much the bigger problem.
One reason I like duotones is that I get to introduce
the color shift. If you aim for neutral and don't get it its noticible.
But, if you go for a tone the reader doesn't know what exact tone you were
going for so if its off...who knows?
The problems with greyscale is that ...we pay for color
on just a few pages...might as well get our bang for our buck. The color
pages are our showcases...we want them to look their best. The rest of the
paper has BW...and newsprint soaks up the ink.
If you are doing coated stock your BW images can have a
wider range of tones. On newsprint that isn't the case. But, by having more
than one ink contributing we can get a bit more on the color pages.
________________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 12:10:42 -0400
From: Henry
Subject: Re: B&W images printed to newsprint CMYK
better or grayscale?
Hoping to avoid a debate over what is meant by
"rich" black, I can offer these observations:
1. "Rich" black will only occur in the
near solid to solid areas of coverage.
2. Neural may be difficult to maintain, even
under the best of conditions.
3. Design 4 color neutral images such that there
is enough black throughout the tonal range
to give neutral a chance to happen.
4. Some 4c neutral images may lack the
"zip" that a good greyscale can have. With only one set of
dots, more paper is visible, and this can be used to your advantage.
However, this is a subjective observation.
5. In some situations, greyscale printing is less
expensive.
Henry Davis
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 12:15:56 -0400
From: Brian Pylant
Subject: RE: B&W images printed to newsprint CMYK
better or grayscale?
One reason I like duotones is that I get to introduce
the color shift. If
you aim for neutral and don't get it its noticible.
But, if you go for a
tone the reader doesn't know what exact tone you were
going for so if its
off...who knows?
Another excellent principle -- making things look
intentional even if they're not -- one that I wish more designers would
think about during the design phase.
For example, in my industry (CD manufacturing) the
inserts and packaging are generally full-color offset, while the discs are
silkscreened with Pantone inks. Far too many designers want the discs to be
the same color as the packaging, and inevitably this color match is always
a critical one in their eyes. I always recommend that they design around
this inherent limitation of the process, using complimentary or contrasting
colors for the disc rather than attempting a spot match to the process
colors. If the inserts and the discs are both blue but are slightly off
their end-customers will likely notice this. But if the discs were, say,
orange instead, who's to know that the inserts printed a bit dark or
whatever?
BRIAN PYLANT
Manager, Electronic Prepress
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
::::::::::::::::::::::::
Disc Makers
7905 North Route 130 * Pennsauken NJ * 08110-1402
Toll free: 1-800-468-9353 ext. 5539
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 19:46:20 +0100
From: claudio corvino
Subject: Re: B&W images printed to newsprint CMYK
better or grayscale?
If black were neutral, it wouldn't be rich...! (IMO)
-------------
Claudio Corvino
Lavori editoriali:
http://www.claudiocorvino.com/
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 18:02:43 -0000
From: "imntcrzy"
Subject: Re: B&W images printed to newsprint CMYK
better or grayscale?
Much thanks for your input and the depth of your
responses..... it'll take a while for me to digest it all.
I do have a question though, I would think by my own
logic that CMYK black and whites would have the ability to produce more
subtle tonal variations.... but with newsprints low total ink limit of 260
or so... that somewhat negates the benifit.... am I correct in this way of
thinking?
I'm starting lean towards grayscale or looking into
running some tests with duotones. Simply because unfortunately
registration problems and pressman tweaking things is more common than not
here. I guess I'm just trying to take as much control out of the
pressman's hands.
Albert
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 16:12:45 -0400
From: Dan Margulis
Subject: RE: B&W images printed to newsprint CMYK
better or grayscale?
Dan Remaley writes,
With High GCR regester is less important because the
detail is held in the Black color only. ÊNewprint has a wide standard
deviation and some amout of GCR should be used all the time. For 4/color
black & White Maximum GCR isd a must.
High GCR is definitely desirable for 4/c B/Ws. However,
the term "Maximum GCR" has a specific meaning in Photoshop and it
isn't what Dan means. In Photoshop, "Maximum GCR" means
absolutely no CMY wherever possible. So, if you separate a B/W picture into
CMYK using Maximum GCR, the CMY channels will be blank--it will be a
straight B/W image. What Dan is looking for, in Photoshop terminology, is
*Heavy* GCR, which will give some CMY but not as much as in a normally
separated image.
In addition to the other arguments made on behalf of
printing B/W with four inks in newspapers, there's one that I think is more
important: when a B/W prints on the same page as color images, it tends to
look coarse because the screening pattern is more obvious than it is in a
4/c image. By printing in all four inks the B/W matches the look of the
color images somewhat better.
Dan Margulis
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:00:42 -0700
From: Rick Gordon
Subject: RE: B&W images printed to newsprint CMYK
better or grayscale?
However, the "Maximum GCR" created by GMB
ProfileMaker acts as Dan Remaley is referring to it: an extra-heavy GCR
which does include CMY components, and works very well for CMYK grayscale.
I'm not sure how the other profile generation packages stack up in therms
of this definition.
I still haven't figured out how to generate a
Photoshop-style Maximum GCR from ProfileMaker. If anyone knows, I'm
interested.
Rick Gordon
___________________________________________________
RICK GORDON
EMERALD VALLEY GRAPHICS AND CONSULTING
___________________________________________________
WWW: http://www.shelterpub.com
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 21:40:36 -0000
From: "imntcrzy"
Subject: Re: B&W images printed to newsprint CMYK
better or grayscale?
if we are in a icc profiled system is there a way to
still a way to print with heavy GCR?
I do see evidence of coarser looking images in
grayscale images images on color pages, but I've guess I never thought of
the screening pattern.
I guess I'm just trying to pick the lesser of two
evils..
Seperating with heavy GCR seems ideal but unfortunately
I am in a workflow that uses icc profiles.
Albert
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 16:59:08 -0600
From: Andrew Rodney
Subject: Re: B&W images printed to newsprint CMYK
better or grayscale?
On 4/7/05 3:00 PM, "Rick Gordon" wrote:
I still haven't figured out how to generate a
Photoshop-style Maximum GCR from
ProfileMaker. If anyone knows, I'm interested.
You mean no CMY? Use Offset, then pick MaxK for
separation and run the CMYK Max slider to 100. You1ll get just a black
curve, no CMY.
Andrew Rodney
http://digitaldog.net/
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 21:45:17 -0400
From: Dan Margulis
Subject: Re: Re: B&W images printed to newsprint
CMYK better or grayscale?
Albert writes,
Seperating with heavy GCR seems ideal but unfortunately
I am in a
workflow that uses icc profiles.
Then you are in a workflow that does not meet minimal
standards for professional-quality CMYK work. At present, the only way to
edit black generation in Photoshop is using the Custom CMYK settings.
Dan Margulis
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 04:57:00 -0000
From: Stephen Marsh
Subject: Re: B&W images printed to newsprint CMYK
better or grayscale?
if we are in a icc profiled system is there a way to
still a way to
print with heavy GCR?
Sure!
I do see evidence of coarser looking images in
grayscale images images
on color pages, but I've guess I never thought of the
screening pattern.
I guess I'm just trying to pick the lesser of two
evils..
Depends, no matter which you choose there are chances
for error.
If the press holds great rego - then go four colour.
If it is not good on rego, greyscale or greyscale plus
supporting tints in the deep shadows/three quarter tones but not
midtones/quart/hlights.
Seperating with heavy GCR seems ideal but unfortunately
I am in a
workflow that uses icc profiles.
In the past I have separated with the Classic Custom
CMYK using Heavy GCR, but without messing with the ink settings etc.
Then I assigned the SWOP v2 profile and viewed LAB
numbers.
Then a channel mixer edit and or minor curves fixes up
the grey balance to be TR001. Channel mixer is good, giving a more linear
result than curves so the edits are better. It is then easy to use a curve
to tweak things if required.
This is not ideal, but itworks.
Making the edits to the inks in the classic engine
first means less work later, I have done this and it works OK for
four colour greyscales but I would not do if for other work.
So yes, one can separate using the classic engine to a
heavier GCR, assign a proper ICC profile to it and then massage the CMY
into shape so that it is neutral for the new profile and not the original
separation condition.
I have mentioned many times before on this list and
other places that it would be more than nice for Adobe or another
person who makes profiles to offer a freely distribuatable ICC profile for
heavy GCR TR001 type conditions. Nobody has.
As Dan notes, since Photoshop 6 we have been told to
forget about the old separation method and to only use a proper profile -
but it is a shame that the proper profile is not good enough for every
image or situation.
Stephen Marsh.
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 02:11:34 -0400
From: Ric Cohn
Subject: Re: Re: B&W images printed to newsprint
CMYK better or grayscale?
On Apr 8, 2005, at 12:57 AM, Stephen Marsh wrote:
As Dan notes, since Photoshop 6 we have been told to
forget about the
old separation method and to only use a proper profile
- but it is a shame
that the proper profile is not good enough for every
image or
situation.
Which (I think) relates to my previous question about
whether there exists (or is there even a need for) an alternative to
Photoshop's old separation engine. I know I'm none too smart, and this
method may be fine for advance users, but from the comments I've seen and
my own limited experience it seems to me there would be a place for a
program that gave easier control over black generation, etc. while still
maintaining specs to a general purpose profile. Maybe there's no way around
doing the hard work that Dan makes look (relatively) easy, but I still have
a very hard time getting my head around this topic.
For example, why would it not be a good idea to
generate (have supplied by Adobe??) family's of profiles to address
different image problems while assuming the same general press conditions?
SwopV2 with light, medium and heavy black generation, for example. Or a
program that could take a supplied profile analyze it and allow changes to
be made. At least this would help with situations where the press is
profiled, but there is a need for changes to the defaults.
I'm probably exposing my ignorance here, but I'd really
like to understand. Is it that there's not really a need, or not a large
enough user base to sell to, or what?
Ric Cohn
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 02:14:08 -0700
From: Rick Gordon
Subject: Re: B&W images printed to newsprint CMYK
better or grayscale?
On 4/7/05 at 4:59 PM -0600, Andrew Rodney wrote:
You mean no CMY? Use Offset, then pick MaxK for
separation and run the CMYK Max slider to 100. You'll get just a black
curve, no CMY.
Not so! I just (once again) generated 4 profiles from
previously read testchart data in ProfileMaker 4.1.5. The profiles were all
set as you suggest, starting with an offset setting, then choosing 100% Max
black and 300% TIL. The four configuration variants were:
Paper Gray Axis + Logo Classic
Paper Gray Axis + Chroma Plus
Paper Gray Plus + Logo Classic
Paper Gray Plus + Chroma Plus
Actually, all four profiles generated exactly the same
results in the following test. I set up four bars in an Adobe RGB document
0,0,0; 64,64,64; 128,128,128; and 192,192,192. I converted to each profile
using RelCol and Black Point Compensation.
In each case:
0,0,0 translated to 66,70,63,98.
64,64,64, translated to 76,74,65,40.
128,128,128 translated to 51,49,45,7.
192,192,192 translated to 26,23,21,2.
So that's nothing similar to the results of a Photoshop
Classic Max Black conversion.
Rick Gordon
------------------
___________________________________________________
RICK GORDON
EMERALD VALLEY GRAPHICS AND CONSULTING
___________________________________________________
WWW: http://www.shelterpub.com
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 08:03:44 -0600
From: Andrew Rodney
Subject: Re: B&W images printed to newsprint CMYK
better or grayscale?
On 4/8/05 3:14 AM, "Rick Gordon" wrote:
Not so! I just (once again) generated 4 profiles from
previously read
testchart data in ProfileMaker 4.1.5. The profiles were
all set as you
suggest, starting with an offset setting, then choosing
100% Max black and
300% TIL. The four configuration variants were:
Paper Gray Axis + Logo Classic
Paper Gray Axis + Chroma Plus
Paper Gray Plus + Logo Classic
Paper Gray Plus + Chroma Plus
These options have no bearing over black generation.
In each case:
0,0,0 translated to 66,70,63,98.
64,64,64, translated to 76,74,65,40.
128,128,128 translated to 51,49,45,7.
192,192,192 translated to 26,23,21,2.
I got:
0,0,0 as 0/0/0/100
64/64/64 as 0/2/7/77
128,128,128 as 1/3/5/42
I'm using PMP 5.0.
Black is set to 100, CMYK Max at 100.
Andrew Rodney
http://digitaldog.net/
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 08:24:48 -0600
From: Andrew Rodney
Subject: Re: Re: B&W images printed to newsprint
CMYK better or grayscale?
On 4/8/05 12:11 AM, "Ric Cohn" wrote:
Which (I think) relates to my previous question about
whether there
exists (or is there even a need for) an alternative to
Photoshop's old
separation engine.
There1s the old flakey engine, it1s still around and
unchanged in CS2.
If you want to have differing control, there are at
least half a dozen or more packages. PrintOpen ICC, X-Rite PROFILER,
ProfileMaker Pro, etc. They have all kinds of controls over black
generation and even tools and controls Photoshop lack. Will they be
identical to Photoshop1s? No. In fact each will be somewhat different just
as Photoshop is different. Use Photoshop if you want. Use a 3rd party
product if you want.
I know I'm none too smart, and this method may be
fine for advance users, but from the comments I've seen
and my own
limited experience it seems to me there would be a
place for a program
that gave easier control over black generation, etc.
while still
maintaining specs to a general purpose profile. Maybe
there's no way
around doing the hard work that Dan makes look
(relatively) easy, but I
still have a very hard time getting my head around this
topic.
The controls in say ProfileMaker Pro are very similar
to Photoshop. GCR is GCR. You might have a slightly different name (Max K
instead of Maximum Black). The theory is the same.
For example, why would it not be a good idea to
generate (have supplied
by Adobe??) family's of profiles to address
different image problems
while assuming the same general press conditions?
SwopV2 with light,
medium and heavy black generation, for example.
You can do that with the products I1ve mentioned.
Or a program that could
take a supplied profile analyze it and allow changes to
be made. At
least this would help with situations where the press
is profiled, but
there is a need for changes to the defaults.
Supplied profile by who? In the case of ProfileMaker
Pro, the measured data (spectral data) of the print conditions are embedded
in the profile so you can import it and build a new profile with new
parameters. Take someone else1s profile, all bets are off. Profiles are
built from measured spectral data. We need that important data. This isn1t
that different in Photoshop (except the data isn1t custom measured, it1s
very general). In Photoshop, when you pick an ink model like SWOP (which
really isn1t SWOP as defined spectrally) using the Ink Colors popup menu,
you1re asking Photoshop to produce some Sep based on a canned assumption
about some ink behavior. It1s not the same as measuring the colorant from
the press sheet or contract proof. None the less, there1s some internal
data used and this is the same with a ProfileMaker Pro profile expect the
actual data is supplied to the engine.
Andrew Rodney
http://digitaldog.net/
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 11:18:12 -0400
From: "Dan Remaley"
Subject: RE: Re: B&W images printed to newsprint
CMYK better or grayscale?
If you look at the default settings for SWOP in
Photoshop, the gains are 24C-20Y-20m-20K.
SWOP suggests 18Y-20M-20C-22K. for gray
balancet press. Just to verify - convert 50C-39M-39Y to Maximum GCR.
(Yes, it should convert to 50%K only )- not Photoshop - 46%K and 4%Cyan! !
! ! That represents the 4% extra Cyan in the default?!* Pantone build
book - same problem. . . .
Dan Remaley PIA/GATF
Process Control Manager
412.2591814
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 10:47:26 -0700
From: Peter Constable
Subject: Re: B&W images printed to newsprint CMYK
better or grayscale?
Then you are in a workflow that does not meet minimal
standards for
professional-quality CMYK work. At present, the only
way to edit
black generation in Photoshop is using the Custom CMYK
settings.
For clarification, many Adobe applications, including
Photoshop, include ICC profiles based on standard printing conditions in
the US and other regions around the globe. However, there are many
high-quality tools for building or editing your own ICC profiles. These
profiles can be used in Photoshop as well.....and can be used to build
professional-quality CMYK workflows. :)
Peter Constable
Adobe Systems, Inc.
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 19:13:20 -0000
From: "imntcrzy"
Subject: Re: B&W images printed to newsprint CMYK
better or grayscale?
Wow look at all this knowledge. Lots of great
info to digest I'm also realizing that I have alot more to learn.
I gather a good starting point for me would be to start
with SWOP newsprint and adjust ink colors from there. Unfortunately I
don't have a clue of what I'm looking at. I know they are lab
coordinates but I don't quite know what to measure and adjust for
variations. Can someone point me in the right direction or recommend
a book that would serve as a primer in starting to creat custom cmyk
tables.
I will try to sift through all this knowledge but my
head is starting to spin.
Albert Lee
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 16:11:48 -0400
From: "Gene Palmiter"
Subject: Re: Re: B&W images printed to newsprint
CMYK better or grayscale?
OK...let me go way out on a limb here...but many of us
have no use for this knowledge. I work for a shop that could change
printing companies at any time. There is no calibrations done to any of the
shop's computers or monitors and besides...most of us work from home. If I
thought I could tweak my images it would be different next time if a
different printer was used. There is no point in stressing over this. Do
the best you can...make small changes, maybe to one image in a group to see
if its better. Learn about this stuff so that you can get a better
job...but don't stress too much unless something is really wrong with the
output.
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 14:57:44 -0600
From: Chris Murphy
Subject: Re: Re: B&W images printed to newsprint
CMYK better or grayscale?
On Apr 8, 2005, at 11:47 AM, Peter Constable wrote:
For clarification, many Adobe applications, including
Photoshop,
include ICC profiles based on standard printing
conditions in the US
and other regions around the globe. However,
there are many
high-quality tools for building or editing your own ICC
profiles.
These profiles can be used in Photoshop as well.....and
can be used
to build professional-quality CMYK workflows. :)
Black generation is a basic function of building CMYK
images and it's a basic function that Photoshop now essentially lacks.
Moving to ICC, we have a regression in features *and* ease of use on this
issue. We can blame it on Adobe not providing editing features for ICC
profiles in their programs, or blame it on the increasingly apparent
limitations of the ICC profile format. While I would like for Adobe to
provide editing capabilities for profiles, I think it's fraught with peril
because of how fussy profiles are with being edited more than lightly.
Subtle moves are necessary or you can jack up an ICC profile so bad it'll
only be useful for comedy (or a lighter wallet when a job gets screwed up).
Nevertheless, it's really absurd that I need to build
three or four output device profiles for a single print condition, name
them properly, manage them and track them, in order to have a basic
function like black generation. It's not better. It's not easier. And so
far we don't have a real solution. The closest we got was the Imation CMM,
but it arrived on the market too soon and was quite frankly poorly marketed
(for proofing rather than for making separations which I think it did a
much better job at than for proofing). But that was the closest I've seen
us get in the ICC world to something approaching logical, from a CMYK
context. I can't say I'm impressed when it seems like we've taken two steps
backwards on basic needs issues like kgen.
Chris Murphy
Color Remedies (TM)
www.colorremedies.com/realworldcolor
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 15:02:28 -0600
From: Chris Murphy
Subject: Re: Re: B&W images printed to newsprint
CMYK better or grayscale?
On Apr 8, 2005, at 2:11 PM, Gene Palmiter wrote:
There is no calibrations done to any of the shop's
computers or
monitors and besides...most of us work from home. If I
thought I could tweak
my images it would be different next time if a
different printer was used.
Yes but at least your monitor would also not be
different, which it is if not regularly calibrated and profiled. It's not
as big of a variable as the print condition, but it's one you can at least
control and it doesn't cost all that much. Same with lighting conditions.
There is no point in stressing over this. Do the best
you can...make small
changes, maybe to one image in a group to see if its
better. Learn about
this stuff so that you can get a better job...but don't
stress too much
unless something is really wrong with the output.
If it's not broken, don't fix it, is compelling
philosophical viewpoint, even though it can lead you to incorrect
conclusions. :)
Chris Murphy
Color Remedies (TM)
www.colorremedies.com/realworldcolor
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Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 22:55:34 -0400
From: Dan Margulis
Subject: Re: pscs2
Ric Cohn writes,
Considering the chatter out there about CS2 I'm
surprised there's been no comments here.
I would suspect that folks are finalizing their views
about it. People often change their opinions about the value of certain
features during the beta period. I'll probably post something next week but
there are still some features that I'm retesting to make sure that I'm not
missing anything.
Is there anything I've missed that would address any of
the issues raised here in the past about the RGB>CMYK conversion engine?
No.
Is it time to accept the fact that Adobe won't act in
this area and that this needs to be addressed by 3rd party programs or
plug-ins?
Adobe is unlikely to act while the present Photoshop
team structure is in place. However, one can always hope that changes in
attitude or changes in personnel will occur.
As for third party programs, it has not been
demonstrated that they are any better than Custom CMYK, and they certainly
aren't as convenient.
Dan Margulis
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Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 23:30:17 -0400
From: Dan Margulis
Subject: Re: Re: B&W images printed to newsprint
CMYK better or grayscale?
Peter Constable writes,
For clarification, many Adobe applications, including
Photoshop,
include ICC profiles based on standard printing
conditions in the US
and other regions around the globe. ÊHowever, there are
many
high-quality tools for building or editing your own ICC
profiles.
These profiles can be used in Photoshop as well.....and
can be used
to build professional-quality CMYK workflows. :)
If that were true, such workflows would have been
adopted long ago. No matter how many years go by, the Photoshop team never
seems to grasp that the reason the idea won't fly is that they refuse to
put an engine in the airplane. The ability to edit separation parameters on
the fly is absolutely fundamental to top-quality work. The failure of
workflows that don't offer this capability was inevitable, as the following
quotation may indicate:
"If Adobe really wishes to implement ICC profiles,
Photoshop ought to be able to edit them. Tweaks are always going to be
necessary...Many desktop and large-format printers are still evolving;
profiles that work for a current product won’t be suitable for the
next version. When the choices are a 15-second tweak to Photoshop’s
built-in engine or purchasing [third-party software] it’s not too
tough to predict what users will do."
I wrote that exactly seven years ago, in April 1998.
Users generally adopt workflows that they think are
better; they reject those that they think are worse. That the Photoshop
team cannot figure out why all these years have gone by without anybody
adopting its recommendation speaks well for its tenacity but not much for
its reasoning ability.
Dan Margulis
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Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 23:17:30 -0700
From: J Walton
Subject: SWOP Newsprint
Not to nitpick, but I wouldn1t count on SWOP Newsprint
anytime soon. SWOP is intended for publication printing (magazines).
There are actually 3 main standards, SNAP, GRACoL, and
SWOP. I don1t think the powers that be intended to name these
after the Rice Krispies guys, but they basically did.
Here1s a link to even more knowledge, though I don1t
think it1s exactly the answer to your question.
http:
//www.idealliance.org/spectrum/2001/standardsupdate.asp
J
___________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 01:23:17 -0700
From: Rick Gordon
Subject: Re: B&W images printed to newsprint CMYK
better or grayscale?
Yes, that works when you CMYK Max at 100, but that is
not the equivalent to what happens with a Photoshop Legacy CMYK Max setup.
For instance, how could you generate any saturated red, green, or purple
with that setup?
The point of that setup is when you are generating
screen capture art or other color plus line art setup where you want to
generate 100%K (or a wider range of fully neutral grays) with all black
ink.
Easy with Photoshop, but I'm not seeing the comparative
functionality here. But I want that comparative functionality, because I
have a relationship with the printer that allows me to generate profiles to
their wet proofer, which they can match on press.
___________________________________________________
RICK GORDON
EMERALD VALLEY GRAPHICS AND CONSULTING
___________________________________________________
WWW: http://www.shelterpub.com
___________________________________________________________________________
Adobe Photoshop training classes are taught in the US by Sterling Ledet & Associates, Inc.